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Post by Althael on Jan 20, 2006 14:07:25 GMT -5
Well Althael, his chart is out of whack so I have no idea what's going on with that one, but I don't even think it's worth much of an explanation. But since KMan seemed to be the one who wrote it up, I'll have to trust him in determining that everything's decent since I'm not even sure of the HD and any LA the template may have added. And I am assuming that he is medium sized as reflected by the stats, though I would need confirmation on that as well as hi is pretty big possibly to maintain flavor (??) I think to do things on a level playing field, the characters should at least have around the same ECL and a similar build in terms of the generation of ability scores. Though if challengers don't care, then that's cool too, it's about the glory. Yeah, he is medium size. Though, if I 'upgrade' him to the same ECL as Malanuus, he'd be large too. If Malanuss want to fight equally in every battle, I'll simply need to ask Japic to send me a 'set' of stats generated with the program(?) he used like all characters for his short, and I'll update Nextxes with the Appropriate level and ability. Well, that is.. if Kman want to do the fight at all.
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Post by K Man on Jan 20, 2006 14:17:35 GMT -5
If Malanuss want to fight equally in every battle, I'll simply need to ask Japic to send me a 'set' of stats generated with the program(?) he used like all characters for his short, and I'll update Nextxes with the Appropriate level and ability. Well, that is.. if Kman want to do the fight at all. KMan is always ready and willing to fight. Bring it on!
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Post by Althael on Jan 22, 2006 0:23:09 GMT -5
Right on. Nextxes is updated to fight the minotaur. I have no idea where to post it so.. it is there, unless the zebra want it somewhere else to have an easier/faster access to it. Weirdly, I finished with the same Hp as Malanuus...
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on Jan 22, 2006 2:07:17 GMT -5
Wow, something about that guy just seems wrong, though I can't put my finger on it. Pretty damn powerful for a level 6 dude. the half fiend template alone has a level adjustment of 4, and if he does in fact have 6 HD he is already an effective character level of 10, and I really have no idea of the level adjustment of his base race and whatever that other template that he seems to have provides him with. And why did his size change?
Anyways, I'm not going to look over the sheet any more then I have to make sure that it is right, because as I said already, I'm not exactly sure what that character is supposed to be, so if KMan is up for the fight, he can look over it all and run the double check for me.
But unless someone else wants to handle the fight, I'm not going to do it until the malanuus v. kieron one is through.
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Post by Althael on Jan 22, 2006 11:46:53 GMT -5
He did change size cause the original size of the creature is large. He doesn't have the half-fiend template. It's a species of half-fiend. Not a creature created with the half-fiend template. It's a Draegloth, but can be refered as an Half-fiend Draegloth too..
The only template that this guy have is the Creature of legend.
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on Jan 22, 2006 16:44:48 GMT -5
OK OK, you've convinced me. I've taken some time to look over your sheet and check some books.
Here is what I've uncovered. If this fight is to take place, it is going to be very unfair. Here's why.
Regarding your monster of legend template. this is a CR +2 template. not an LA +2 template. Level adjustments are often times larger then CR adjustments. Just like most monsters have CRs lower then their ELs. Simply comparing monster of legend to other LA+2 templates and races quickly shows us that it is completely out of their league.
Monster of legend is an LA +4 template, at least.
Regarding your base race. At the moment, I have access to practically every D&D hardcover published for this edition. However, I could not find this race. I am guessing that it can be found in the book of vile darkness or a campaign speciffic book which I do not have available to me. If I am mistaken, then please tell me where it is so that I may look at it.
In any case, even without seeing it's stats, based on the abilities listed, I am positive that this race has some sort of Level adjustment. 3.0 and some third party books do not bother to write the LA for some monsters, which does not mean that they do not have one, it simply means that it just wasn't calculated for some reason or another. Even in current first party books, some monsters do not have their LA listed either because their EL is higher then 20, or they are inappropriate for PC play (no hands, no capacity for communication, etc. . . )
It seems apparent that considering the abilities, some of the abilities should be staggared by a Level adjustment and not given all upfront, speciffically, the enormous strength bonus.
Taking into consideration these Level adjustments, your character is only going to have one, maybe two hit dice at level 6.
Also regarding your feats, it seems really inappropriate to have so many at such an early stage in your progression.
Again, if KMan still doesn't mind, I will be happy to run the fight BUT there are a few things which you must know beforehand.
Permanent Haste is not an ability which any PC should have access to at level 6. Even a speed weapon (+3 weapon bonus) only gives part of the haste advantage. I will be ignoring this ability.
secondly, the energy resistences are too high . Consider them; all reduced to 5.
I'm not going to try to balance the whole deal out for one fight, but if this is going to happen, I at least want some sort of equality and fairness. Minotaur is a pretty good race, but it is not THAT good. This fight would be completely unbalanced if I just allowed everything to slide.
And one last question, since I have no idea what your starting stats were, what stat generation system did you use? And what type is your creature, I assumed outsider.
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Post by Althael on Jan 22, 2006 17:05:28 GMT -5
Half-Fiend Draegloth:Monster Of Fearun Page 59.
I'm glad that you will, cause the character doesn't have this ability at level 6. Please read everything?
Not as if it would change something either since it's most likely to be an unarmored combat and that the character won't receive any energy damage.
Yes, outsider. For the starting stats, I used the same as Kman used for his stats, which is the stats generated by Japic for his Shorts. Which were: 18, 12, 18, 12, 15 , 12.
By the way, it is mean to be a little more stronger since it is a creature that is not mean to use no armor nor weapons. At least from what I can understand.
Edit: Fixed some typo..
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on Jan 22, 2006 17:21:18 GMT -5
Permenant haste isn't an ability a level 8 character should have either, by the way. The information on your character is formatted over several posts and done so in a confusing manner without references to your source material.
However, since we are correcting each other, your to hit bonus is wrong. It should be +12 (4 BaB, 9 Str, -1 Size). You have your BAB incorrectly listed as 6, it should be 4 as you only have 4 Outsider hit dice due to your level adjustment, though it isn't noted where this adjustment comes from. Likewise, you have added your full strength to both your claws and bites. One of these must be secondary, but it isn't listed. Secondary attacks have a -5 penalty and only add half strength bonus.
Like I've said already a bunch of times, I didn't want to get into any major proofreading of the shet, but if you do want to go through with this fight, these are some things that are going to need to be fixed straight off. All level adjustments aside.
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Post by Althael on Jan 22, 2006 17:41:09 GMT -5
Yes, a 4 HD outsider should have a +4Bab, but Kman didn't made the table this way (No idea why though). Just ask him why. But if he had made the table and have no problem with it, and doesn't mind to match this character with his mino, I don't see why you seems to freak out with it.
If you want to discuss anything about the tables or something, talk to Kman, I can't answer you.
Just don't mess too much with it, cause my interest may fall.
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on Jan 22, 2006 21:46:47 GMT -5
Why would this ever be an unarmored and unarmed fight? If it is then I feel awful bad for KMan. He should gain every advantage of his character as you are going to. And the energy resistance does matter as the minotaur carries a sword which deals cold damage.
---------------------------------------- Oh, and for Kman, out of curiosity, why doesn't your minotaur wear light armor. although he is not proficient, he really gains no disadvantages from wearing it in battle and it is a whole lot cheaper then bracers. -------------------------------
If you noticed Kman's mistakes, which they obviously were, then feel free to correct them yourself. Why should you gain an upper hand because of an error in math?
Is this a threat or a promise? All I was trying to do was help you out since people don't have much time to run these little fights.
I'm not trying to mess with the character, that should be quite clear. I wouldn't have the time to do that. I'm just trying to understand it. I can't work with it until I understand it. You show me a character with no description, physical or otherwise, says it's a half fiend but it's not, mechanics clearly don't fall into the catagory of 3.5 D&D, really I'm not sure what to think. For all I know you could have been intending it for some other game using the D20 system. I couldn't be certain of what exactly was being used or done. And by the way, a physical description would be immensely useful.
So I'm not freaking out about anything. I was willing to put the fact that your character has an effective character level of at least 10 aside if Kman still wants to do the fight. I just really needed to get a handle on what's going on with this guy and why you won't even change the BAB and attack damage mods which are obviously incorrect for the simple fact that you noticed them as well and did nothing to fix them at my request. So if I do the fight, I am going to need to remember to adjust them myself.
If you don't want to do the fight with me in particular, then that's fine, but it still doesn't change the fact that the character does not fall in at all with the current rules of the game as I know them.
That's about all I'm going to say on the issue cause I think I've said enough. You and Kman can decide what to do based on the info I've pointed out and whatever other decisions you guys come to.
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Post by K Man on Jan 23, 2006 10:47:49 GMT -5
Enough. No more prodding, flaming, or name calling. To answer Z-Shakes; Malanuus doesn't wear armor because yes, it is a matter of honor. Bracers (to him) aren't really a sign of weakness, though they can provide the same level of protection. Plus, he thinks he looks stylish in just his kilt and fur. It's not so much a mechanics of the game thing as it is a role-playing thing. It would be hard for him to point out the cowardly actions of others while wearing armor himself...eventhough light as it may be. Hope that helps. To Both of you; Regarding the Monster of Legend, Half-Fiend Draegloth. Yes, it is not actually the 'fiendish' template, but rather the whole name of the monster. The only template applied is the Monster of Legend. However, when I created that progression table, I will admit, I was not the best at understanding how to break something down like that and probably did it incorrectly. To Althael: I am secure enough to admit that The ZebraShakes is far better at game balance and rules than myself and am certain her questions can balance the progression out to be fair. I don't think she was trying to attack you for your character, but rather just trying to understand what the character was and its power. The Half-Fiend in the name is confusing as is the fact that its not in the SRD or any other 'basic' books. That said, she is a resource--just like the rest of this board--that should be valued. I, for one, sincerely appreciate the knowledge-base KMan's has come to be of players helping players. I like having expertise to help me understand the more confusing rules we are faced with. You may not appreciate it as much as I do, but when you post in a public forum, be prepared for criticism. If you want my help in re-doing the progression table and template, I'd be happy to look it over and try to correct my old mistakes. However, I still think it would be wise to lean on the other members here and find the value in what they say. I'm erasing some of the posts in this thread. *** As an aside, the 'Arena' is for Out-Of-Character fights, not player fights.
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Post by Japic on Jan 23, 2006 10:53:20 GMT -5
Shakes: I'll answer this. For all Shorts characters I have used "Jamis Buck's D&D NPC Generator (2.0.4 BETA)" using a 'heroic' stat setting. { THIS LINK might work. I can't navigate to it just now behind my office's webfilter to verify, but it should be there.} It's a decent program if you're ever looking for a quick NPC, and there's lots of options to check or uncheck depending on what you want to have or see. That's all I've got to say, thanks.
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on Jan 23, 2006 11:25:44 GMT -5
OK, I think the whole thing got blown out of proportion. Althael, I really wasn't trying to attack you or anything and I didn't think that it came off as such, but apparently it might have so I'm sorry about that.
I guess the issue was that you didn't design the charts and basically played no part in it so it may have seemed that I was holding you responsible and I can understand that.
When I got into all of the rules talk, I was simply attempting to clarify some things for those who might not have known, my target audience being those who took part in the construction of the character.
As I said in regard to the fight, I was willing to put the majority of it aside for the time being, since fixing up the character is not an urgent matter. Though Kman has already offered to help ammend the charts and I would be willing to lend a hand as well. All that I asked in the meantime was that the bab and attack damage mods be fixed and energy resistance numbers fall into lone with the 3.5 system rather then 3.0.
All of the other questions, stats, creature type, clarification of templates and size, was just a way of trying to get some grip on what the creature is and what the intentions may have been at the time of his creation since I really had no idea about either. I had no clue what the monster even was as I have never played, nor picked up anything to do with the Forgotten Realms campaign setting.
I guess that's my piece for the day.
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Post by Althael on Jan 23, 2006 15:04:38 GMT -5
Everything forgotten then. I admit too that thing got exaggerated a bit uselessly.
I'm all for rebuilding the racial table of the draegloth of legend. As I said, an equal battle is more interesting anyway. If able, I'd gladly rework the table, or at least help, but since I get no help with the few I try to build, I simply can't.
Zebra, if you want anything from FR, just Pm me.
Japic, interesting. I did fall on this generator a few day ago while searching a stats generator. And yes, the link is working correctly.
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Post by Althael on Jan 25, 2006 16:49:09 GMT -5
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on Jan 25, 2006 19:38:18 GMT -5
Well he looks fine for a quick melee combat for now.
I'll still run it like I said.
You'll just need an opponent, K Man I believe. But of course he'll have to look over it so you guys can agree upon battle stipulations and whatnot. It may not be a fair fight if we applied the same rules as were applied to the monk fight. But whatever you guys agree on will stand.
And again, since it kept the last fight on track and moving quickly, though niether player was known for his infrequent posting, I'd like to still maintain the same rules in regard to posting that I mentioned in an earlier post. If we don't hear from you in 24 hours, then I'll take over your next action If we don't hear from you in 48-72 hours, then your character forfeits the match. of course weekend time is excluded and if you mention that you won't be able to post beforehand then that's cool too. whatever.
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Post by Althael on Jan 25, 2006 20:21:32 GMT -5
Right on, sound good to me.
So Kman, what are the rules?
-No armor (Wasn't hard to guess..) -To the death (Evidently ;D)
But what about the weapons? With your axe, you'll make Nextxes' life very hard and short. Though, you only have your gore as natural attack.
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Post by Wicksy on Jan 26, 2006 4:25:45 GMT -5
I would say in this case, full kit would be fun. Altheal's character has excellent to hit and damage with all of his natural attacks. Malanuus gets only one attack at full attack bonus. Might I suggest both take weapons and armour. since Altheal's guy has a clear advantage in the natural AC. Natural amour still doesnt stack with other armour does it? With everyones kit, it would be a pretty even battle I would think.
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on Jan 26, 2006 4:59:31 GMT -5
Well, as I've said, I'm giving althael a lot of leeway in terms of his character, ignoring the fact that in terms of current rules, he should have at the very least an LA of 4 which is not accounted for, thus at this point, he has an effective character level of around 10 or 11
I'm only doing this because it is a quick melee combat and most of his abilities and feats will not come into play anyhow. Otherwise we would have to completely redo his charts in order to make him suitable for PC play.
His AC is fine, his attacks and damage are fine. He cannot use weapons and armor so that point is moot.
Seeing as how his LA is not accounted for, neither is his wealth, thus I do not think it is necessary for him to have any equipment for this battle other then what he already possesses, which is nothing I think. (and I thank you for clarifying which natural weapon was improved with the feat, though you still didn't subtract 1 from your to hit for large size. Though not a huge deal, I'll remember) I'm assuming he's still large sized, correct me if I'm wrong.
On K Man's behalf, if he does still want to fight, I'd suggest Just using everything which Malanuus has available to him on his character sheet, bracers, sword and whatever else. If you think you'll need anything more to even up the advantage let me know what it would be.
That's my take on the situation.
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Post by K Man on Jan 26, 2006 10:25:44 GMT -5
While Malanuus never backs down from a fight, his pupeeter might have to evaulate this one carefully.
Nex Vs. Malanuus by Sheer Numbers
AC: 21 Vs. AC: 17 HP: 47 Vs. HP: 47 Attack: +12/+12/+7 Vs. +12/+6 PDO: 46 Vs. PDO: 52 (46 without cold damage) Special: Resistances Vs. Special: None**
PDO = Potential, Non-Crit Damage Output
** = I say none because my reach is again negated because you also have reach. It's not an advantage for me. In fact it may even hinder me because to charge and gain Gore Charge Damage, I would have to incur the AoO to charge you.
What worries me is that you A) get one more attack than I do and B) there seems to be no penalty to the second claw attack. Unless I'm calculating it wrong, I would have to say this is sided in your favor. I think you need the Multiattack feat to not have each attack reduced by -5.
I would say we can use weapons and armor (by 'armor' I mean my bracers) simply because it's the little edge I need. Without a weapon, my damage output is about half of yours.
I would also like to see either your # of attacks diminished or the ability to hit well diminished some how. Otherwise I'm gonna need a balancing mechanism because your AC is high and my second attack may never hit. You have at least a 50% chance with your weakest attack to hit whereas I have a 75% chance to miss with my second attack and a ~45% to miss with my primary. If all your secondary attacks are lowered like I think they are, I've got no problems.
But other than that beef, I'm good to go.
Shakes, thanks again for taking the time to run this.
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