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Post by VemuKhaham on Feb 3, 2005 10:01:47 GMT -5
Hi all, now that these boards are up, let's use the space we have to continue our creation process here. Basically, this thread is the continue of our previous thread, where it all started: kmansadventures.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=Rants&action=display&n=1&thread=1052So if you have any suggestions or comments on making the game, post them here. All rules that are made here and deemed as good will also be moved to the FKo Rules Guide, another thread in this board that contains all rules that are definitive. (as far as we can speak of definitive) Let's get going, shall we?
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Post by K Man on Feb 3, 2005 11:35:30 GMT -5
I'll be the first to pose a few questions. 1. Dibs on the Minotaur Empire of RiKnaak! (Not really a question, but you know, had to get that out there. ) 2. What can we start on and what format do you need it in? For instance, in my case, can I begin the story of my empire and important players? Can I develop my king? (Without the rules.) 3. How soon till we can see a map and how will we stake claim to the lands on it? Just a few to get started. A brainstorm I had last night, why not, for the 'Kings', let us create an epic PC, starting at lvl 20 including LA, and have that be our King. Using Standard D&D 3.5 rules to create and DMG wealth for a PC of that level. It would keep the game D&D related and give us someone to relate with. As for cohorts and generals, I don't have an answer on that one. Thoughts?
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Post by VemuKhaham on Feb 3, 2005 12:19:53 GMT -5
Ok, I've just put up some introductions to the different boards of this game. It will explain what their functions are. If you have any comments you may also direct them here. I feel that maybe some of you might have problems with the 'secrecy policy', and I wished to get your opinions on it; to see how far this should be taken according to you all. If you haven't read it, check the battlefield intro and the diplomacy board intro.
kman I'll answer you in a moment; gotta go now for a second
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Post by VemuKhaham on Feb 3, 2005 13:33:44 GMT -5
1+2: Sounds cool. You may start brainstorming on your kingdom if you wish. If you do so, follow the information in the 'Kingdom Administration' board. And if you wish, you can also develop your king there. 3: I'm not sure when I will give you a map, but it might take a while. It's largely because I'm still unsure what players I have and thus their starting locations can't be given yet, and as a result of that I'm not sure if I want to let you view the entire map while you may only know about a section of it. One thing you can also do is make a wish-list for your starting location, so I can take it into consideration. That way you can influence a little the map you will see when you begin. I thought of the D&D-rules king too, but I has some issues with it: It's hard to implement them with the rest of the rules, such as arcane magicians: I don't even know how I will do arcane magic. I will think on this more however. It might present more possibilities in RP'ing the leader, cause that's what the D&D-system excels in. We'll just have to find a way to make it work with the FKo-rules. And therefore, we need to know what the FKo-rules are first, so I'm gonna get working on that again, but not today anymore. Oh, and generals and such: I think that if kings will use D&D-rules for char. creation, why not they too? (Oooh, this D&D-system could work for duels as well... ) After tomorrow, I will have holiday from school for a week so there will be plenty of time to work on this.
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Post by Fangor the Fierce on Feb 4, 2005 1:27:28 GMT -5
A few opinions:
LEVELS and BATTLES: Starting at level 20 would be cool, but would you really think that is too high? After all, you were opting for the kings to decide if they would take part in battles/sieges...and now its almost a deciding factor in those encounters.
I would say that in the beginning, players should start their kings at about 5th level or so. That still gives room to grow, and have some decidedly advantageous factors to aid in battles and such.
Generals would probably be around level 3 or so, as they would need to grow as well.
Then you could have Seargents or such at about level 2.
Military personnel would all be level 1. That includes specialized troops. They should still be level one, but with fewer numbers if possible. 2 to 1 ratio, or so.
Then, you could have your troops in groups, wheras rules for battles/sieges would declare that one leader (Seargent, General or King) may control only a certain amount of troops. Seargents could probably control up to 50 troops at the most. Generals can control up to 100 troops at the most. Kings can support up to 150 troops at the most. These numbers are not fixed, but only showing that a Seargent could understandably easily control a certain amount of troops. Generals, with more knowledge and practice, should be able to control more. You can still have troops in groups of ten, or so, with eaach having a Seargent/General controlling them.
Seargents and Generals and Kings would then benifit their troops with certain bonuses. Seargents may in fact grant a +1 to attacks. Generals could grant higher bonuses, or specialized attacks based on their class levels. Kings could then add bonuses as well, from their class levels as well. In essence, the leaders abilities then comes into play. Those with special abilities like Magic, could then grant the use of it during battle. But, the downfall is that if that group of troops falls in battle, then there is a chance that the enemy may capture, behead, or bribe that individual. Makes the use of certain leaders more of a tactical response to battles/sieges.
GAINING EXP/LEVELS:
With a system as pointed out above, there would have to be amodified system of gaining levels. Each month, should you gain RP, you would gain a fixed percentage of EXP to your next level. Higher levels would gain a little slower, but have more chances to gain other exp, with the higher ability to explore, conquer, cultivate, and various quests.
Lower level players would only be able to do a limited amount of duties, without having the high resources of higher levelled kingdoms. To better help them, various goals of a minimum Culture Level, Goods Level, or other various goals can be set by the GM, allowing levels to be attainable. Higher levelled kingdoms would have higher goals accordingly.
QUESTS:
I was tihnking about this for a while. I would actually be in favor of random actions like events. In other words, perhaps on a random month, you rolled for an event to take place. On the events list, you rolled for something good to happen. That could be a list of things. Such as...
Trophy Hunt: You have been asked by some hunters to aid in capturing a wild beast nearby your Kingdom. Should you decide to help, you can go yourself, or send a General or Seargent to aid the hunters. The success of the hunt brings various rewards. A truely astounding voctory over the beast, with NO LOSS in troops would net a prize such as a magic item, magic wepaon, a new servent or something to that effect. A victory with minimal loss, would then grant a donation from the hunters, or something to that effect. A loss would prove fatal, possibly landing your leader in the infirmary for a few months to recover.
Festivals: Various festivals are springing up, and you have been asked to donate some funds to aid in the festivities. Depending on the mood of your people, and the amount of donation, you could find various followers, or even gain favor among your people. Possibly even a return on your investment, as others from around the surrounding areas would flock to your festivals, spending their own funds in your kingdom. The return would greatly depend on the attitude of your people, and the donation, such as... A low attitude of your people, with a high donation might boost your reputation/hppines a little. Or it might leave it the same, as they would think of it as a bribe.... A meager donation, with happy people might leave the people in the same mood, or lower the happiness a little. A High donation with Happy poeple might serve to find a useful scout, who likes the way you treat your people, or even a small return in a boost of RP for that month.
Each event, would then have an EXP bonus associated with how you deal with it. From small to large....simple enough.
Bandit Raids would easily be taken care of by sending out troops. Success on the capture of the bandits would gain exp, and happiness from your kingdom.
Monster sights might net you a new found place to use in battles. Their lairs might have been protecting a special plce in your kingdom, never before found. Like a small valley lush with goods. etc...
KINGDOMS:
Vemu, I was wondering how this whole map thing was going to be set up as. In other words, is each section of land a smaller sectio of an area? Let us take an example in real life. The United States. There is one big section of land, for the contiguous states. Within that area, there are states. 48 of them, contiguously. Now, within each of these states, there are counties. Some have more than others. So, my question is, when building a kingdom, you would start out with a certain land mass called a section. Is that section all there is, or are there enough sections that you can have many sections under your control, before even getting into another kingdom?
I hope I haven't confused you, as I think I confused myself. Well, I guess if I have, I will have to wait on a map to figure this out. I was hoping to see something like a map, so that I can begin writing up a kingdom description.
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Post by VemuKhaham on Feb 5, 2005 7:59:08 GMT -5
update:Yesterday and today I've done some work on the rules. I've especially tried to develop a basis for the kingdom-running part of the game: economy and such. Basically, what I have determined now is the following: - How do you grow your empire? - How do you gain resources? - What resources are there? - What can you spend them on? - What are the effects of spending them on any given category? That means I've done economy (food, standard production and wealth), military (Military production) and culture (cultural production and happiness). These areas are now mostly covered in rules, plus the things that they in turn affect. I'm quite pleased myself with the progress so far; thank you all for helping me do this. I have tried to implement many of your ideas on this topic and mix them with what I already had, but most of all the ideas I got when I read your suggestions; I hope you can still notice it. But again, it's not truly definitive yet, even though I put it in the FKo Rules Guide. If you wish, you may still discuss things here about it that you would've done different, or more of the suggestions that you provided me with already. Also, it was hard for me to determine numbers right now while I was creating this, because I have little to go from right now, and I haven't play-tested anything, so if you see any rude imbalances, which I'm sure there are, give me a sign and we'll go from there. Once all the rules are finished, I'm gonna check all of them again but then as a whole to see if the numbers are balanced by then. Some elements of these rules refer to things I have yet to create. I have made mental notes on these and I will explain them later in other chapters of the game. For example, squares and such will be discussed somewhere else more detailed. Expect more to come soon. As I noticed that some of you are a bit confused about land dividing (squares), I'm gonna take to that bit now. However, I still am not sure when this map will come up. Fangor, thanks again for your great work, the map will be divided in something like a chess-board; a roster. This will make it simple, easy to determine what land belongs to who, it will make traveling very easy, it supports the economy system, and it will mean there is plenty of room to expand to before you bump into your neighbours. If it ever happens that all land on the world will be dominated by the kingdoms, you will find that you have many such squares under your control. Yes, I agree that leaders should start a little bit lower, so that they too can grow like your kingdom does. Level5 would be a good begin. More and more I'm leaning towards a tactical system based on D&D. It is quite well possible to run large-scale battles with the system. However, it should be simplified. No feats, no skills, etc. What we should use is Ranged/Melee Attack Bonus, AC, HP, speed etc. The basics. This will make it possible that "hero's" will truly stand out in battle. Imagine your king and the military leaders as the only guys performing attacks based on feats, such as power attack and whirlwind attack. This would on itself make them much stronger then any other soldier, plus he will have the ability to level, while normal soldiers will not. Normal soldiers should indeed always be first level. However, I wish to give soldiers the ability to improve through science. Generals are a good idea. However, I doubt if it would be wise to include sergeants and all of the officer rankings running around the field as units on their own needing therefore their own administration etc. It would require too much work. In fact, I tried this in my previous version of the rules, but I ran into to much administration for anyone but a pc to handle. This is no pc game, and as humans we have limits sadly. Morale given by generals are a good idea as well. I want to make morale to be a true factor, as it is in real warfare. Long missions will penalize morale, as well as overwhelming odds. I don't think a general should give boosts to anything: he should make sure the morale does not lower, and therefore generals decrease the speed of which morale will drop. The tactical guidance generals/kings bring in real life is important too, but I will make this rule I think: - If the king/PC is available, he may command all of his army as he sees fit. He will also be the best way to improve morale. As long as he is around and morale is well, his soldiers will do as he says. There should be given no bonuses just because you are present, except for the fact that you have the ability to try and gain advantages because of commanding them. For example, if you effectively manage to command your troops to attack the enemy from both sides, a flanking bonus will be given. - If a general/NPC has been given command of the troops and the king/PC is not around, the player may not command his forces. However, generals do give morale military guidance. To make up for not being able to command your forces yourself, you will receive a standard bonus depending on the experience of the general in question, like a +1AC to the troops. This is because the GM will decide troop's actions when the king/PC is not around (as happens with all NPC's) and the GM will not be able to play on different levels of tactical experience like different generals with different experience would, and this bonus will make up for that difference. - When there is no king/PC nor a general/NPC to lead a given army and it is in battle, the GM will again take command of the troops but there will be no bonuses given to the troops. Also, morale will be decreased at a normal rate. Soldiers will fight to the best of their ability, but due to the lack of experienced leadership they will not quickly fight in formation. - If both a general/NPC and a king/PC is at the battle scene, the player may command his troops, morale will decrease as little as possible, but the bonuses for the general will only apply if the king gives command of a certain force to the general, and then only to that particular part of the army he is given command of. The soldiers the general commands will be played by the GM. At all times the GM will try to be fair. He will not fight differently for different kingdom's troops. He will of course try to get the best possible outcome, like troops normally would. He will think as the troops would like a GM should think as NPC's would. I doubt though if generals should be given their own stats like kings would. Lets keep the heroic parts up to the king or forces under command of the kings. Generals will only lead troops, and therefore they won't fall easily. However, there is a chance they will fall, probably randomly decided every battle, with bigger chances that he will fall the more casualties on your side. But, besides large-scale battles, it could improve RP if these outstanding characters are given their own stats. Like a general you send somewhere to use his diplomacy skills to raise the army's spirits again. Or an assassin you send to somewhere to take someone out who will have to use his hide-skills and such. All in all, I think I'm gonna make a difference between large scale battle-stats and small-scale battle stats for anyone. For example, were a city-guard to defend the city along with a hundred other city-guards, his stats will become mass-combat stats, but if he were to alone perform some deed that the king would witness like normal adventuring PC's would witness an NPC perform something, he will switch to small-scale stats and perhaps even use feats or skills. What do you all think? I don't know if I understand you correctly. Anyway, I'll give you my idea on the subject: I was thinking of making it much like D&Dleveling, but only kings and special NPC's would have the ability to level. As I am planning, there will be certain quests (ranging from dealing with bandits to finding the seeds if the campaign will be elected) for the kings, and if they perform them (whether by sending people and dealing with it succesfully or going there themselves) the king will gain experience. NPC's will grow as you send them on duties or as they themselves decide to do certain things. Normal soldiers will only be improved through science. I like this, and I agree with all of it. Events will be the triggers of quests (with exception being the campaign if chosen), and succesfully completing them brings benefits to the kingdom itself. This is a good starting-point from which to approach this aspect of the game. I will keep it in mind while I create the rules that handle these situations. Thanks for the inspiration.
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Post by VemuKhaham on Feb 6, 2005 8:55:22 GMT -5
*updated the FKo rules guide - just letting ya know here, cause I edited the text in one of the reserved posts, so it won't show up as a new post*
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Post by K Man on Feb 7, 2005 9:21:07 GMT -5
Just to add my three cents, I like everything so far, save for one thing. The starting level of the 'kings'. Level 5 is just too low, indeed so much so that according to D&D, one can't even have cohorts. Also, with people in my situation, (Wanting to use Minotaurs) It negates that options. Any king would have to be at LEAST 10th level in order for me to play minotaurs as they are presented in the rules. (9HD +2LA=11th) If Vemu wants to re-write the minotaur, well then he can or I can use dim-downed versions like those presented in the Dragonlance campaign setting. However, I think 10th for kings, 5th for generals and 3rd for general cohorts would still be good... Based on my readings of the rules, I'm gonna have to spend some serious points to be able to have my Minotaur empire right? I imagine that 1st level human/elf/dwarf fighters are not of the same ability as Mino's of the same level. Sheesh...maybe I should just play some humans.
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Post by VemuKhaham on Feb 7, 2005 9:48:11 GMT -5
no need to be worried there, Kman. I see the reason in your argument for higher starting levels for kings, I'll take it into acount. Lvl5 wasn't definitive yet. I'm going to consider 10, cause I'd like it if there would still be enough room to grow, but I don't want to make some ideas impossible because of this.
I'm not sure what caused you to worry in the rules so far, but again let me assure you I'm gonna make LA-based kingdoms as good an option as any other. My plans are to make LA-populations suffer in number when creating military units, but there strength should make up for it. So Japic's idea won't change that much, I'm only going to do it with military units instead of population as a whole (and of course this now old version of the rules has changed).
One last note though; the races as they are presented in the PhB and MM have abilities (like '+4bonus vs. giants' for dwarves) that they won't have anymore in FKo, cause it's either impossible to go along with FKo-rules or the fact that this is mass-combat makes such things over-powered. Therefore, I'm gonna remake almost all of the races, granting them abilities more based on kingdom-size and such. They will still reflect the races though, as best as I can make. When it's time for race-creation, I'll let you all know so we can do it together.
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Post by VemuKhaham on Feb 8, 2005 8:57:54 GMT -5
Again a post to inform you I've edited another reserved post in the FKo rules guide into a complete chapter. This one'll probably have much information you might have guessed already, but it's worth the read, as there is new info too and it'll make certain things a bit clearer perhaps.
Anyways, I'm now gonna focus more on military items, such as creation of the units (I'm gonna do this now), but not now immediately, as for some reason my internet connection is horribly slow and it's annoying me to the point I can't think clearly...
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Post by VemuKhaham on Feb 8, 2005 17:40:14 GMT -5
ok, I've more or less thought my unit creation rules out, and it allows as much freedom as I could give. (the FKo rules guide has been updated) What I've taken into consideration was Kman's concern about LA-creatures. The rules ensure that such problems as LA are gone, as costs will balance anything you can try to design, including a mega-strong Minotaur. If you got the coin, you get the strong Mino's, if you don't, you get the weak ones. I'm still not sure on some of the costs though, but balancing the numbers is for later. I hope everybody can find himself playing with these rules. Some things might still be vague as I haven't done the battle rules themselves yet, but these will come next. Comments are always welcome.
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Post by VemuKhaham on Feb 15, 2005 10:55:21 GMT -5
Hi all, I realise it's been some time since my last update, and I thought it'd be good to say I didn't forget ya'll. This week I've been both busy and fighting with all kinds of mapping tools to choose whichever would be most useful for battle maps. For some reason, good-old easy paint let me down, and I'm poor with paintshop pro, so I'm now taking my faith to Autorealm. So far it's promising. I needed to make a battle map cause in my next chapter there'll be an example of a battle, to explain the rules a bit better. The other part of that chapter (more battle rules) I've already finished, so I've not been idle. And more good news, as Fangor has been greatly helping me in making the rules for events and such; in fact she made the entire chapter. Thanks again for that. I'm gonna think on that more when I'm done with my current work, and edit things if needed. Also, I'll give you a list of things I've yet to do, and I'll scratch things from this list as I finish them: - Battle rules part 2 (largely done)- Special tactical combat modifiers (done, but still expanding) - Arcane Magic- Science - Events (in co-operation with fangor; largely done now) - World Map (I'm leaning more and more on recreating or at least very much editing the one I've made previously (that is not on these boards)) - Racial Advantages and such - things I didn't come up with as of yet, and more miscellaneous things like espionage, adventures, siege, morale etc etc. Some of these things might also be included in other chapters. All of this is still without total certainty, so it might change, but it'll be my guideline as I create this baby monster. I hope this clears up some things for those who are waiting or not exactly knowing where we currently are. I'll keep you updated.
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Post by VemuKhaham on Feb 25, 2005 15:18:23 GMT -5
ok, I don't like to confess it, but for some reason I am utterly unable to draw a good terrain battlefield map with paint or photoshop... It bugs me truly, not just cause I can't, but because of the reasons why I can't... I need your help, if you know of some way to get around or fix any of the following problems I encountered while making a grid on a blank new image on one of the above-mentioned programs and trying to give a colour to the individual squares. {I need those colours, cause it is the only good way to give enough information through the map itself} The problems are: - Paint: in this program, I can make a grid. It's not very hard, actually. Just draw some lines and you're done. But, when I then save the grid so I can use it more often without having to draw it all again (which is an annoying task) I see that for some reason the black-white image has all kind of grey pixels all across the image, and so I can't use the tool for colouring entire surfaces at once effectively. I just can't figure out how to avoid my completely black-and-white image to turn into an image with grey pixels all over it. I hope the problem is clear: it's hard describing such a thing, and I especially hope that maybe someone knows how to deal with this issue. - Adobe Photoshop 7.0: last week I spend a lot of time on figuring out how to use photoshop a little. I found out it's easier then it looks, and therefore I decided to give it a try and draw my battlefield map on it. So again, I drew my grid without problems, and I even filled up all of the squares with colour using the tool with which you can fill entire surfaces at once. But, again for some reason, when I use this tool, the grid around it simply fades, probably because everytime I use the fill-tool that particular surface expands a little over its borders. This makes my grid fade and eventually it gets lost completely, making the battle map useless. Again, help is so greatly appreciated! I've been at war with my pc for the last week and I'm dying for a seize-fire treaty. If you have an idea for me to craft battlemaps with grid and colour in another way, then of course that would be appreciated just as well.
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Post by Toptomcat on Feb 25, 2005 15:22:03 GMT -5
I know how to solve the first problem. Save the file as a 24-bit bitmap instead of a JPEG or GIF.
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Post by K Man on Feb 25, 2005 16:32:21 GMT -5
Vemu, Honestly, there are alot of free, or relatively cheap programs out there to be used for Campaign Cartography. You're not the first person to feel outwitted by your PC on this. My Suggestions; 1) Search for a cartography program, include words like D&D, campaign and other game related words to narrow the results to what you want. 2) Find a paper/plastic battle mat of what you want it to look like. Then, scan it at a high resolution and use the photoshop laso/cutting tools to take out a hex, one of each color. Save each hex as a seperate image file, (JPG like TTC says) then make one large blank canvas in Photoshop. Open your individual tiles and cut and paste, one at a time. If needed, bold the lines of each seperate hex so that the fill tool doesn't overlap the lines. 3) Hand draw it and scan it. None of us will really care that much, just put some effort into it. Here in the states, you can find good blank hexagonal battle mats at nearly every gaming store. 4) I think your problem with the "disappearing" hex lines is because photoshop works in layers. Each time you fill something, you might be making a new layer which can sometimes override lower layers. It's great for design and moving objects, but I've had it happen to me before. Just double check and become familiar with your layers before giving up. 5) Give up...no wait, that's a shitty idea. Hope those help on some level Vemu.
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Post by VemuKhaham on Feb 25, 2005 17:50:23 GMT -5
Thanks for all the advice so quickly, it really helps. I decided to take Kman's fifth option. That means you may delete this part of the board Kman. I do have to say it was great working with you all; I thank you for the help in all this. Alas, maybe next time. See you all around, VK. Enough joking now. just wanted to say that the advice helped; I tried paint again now saving it as a 24 bit bit-map (its the easiest way to go) and it worked. Thanks. Expect some new rules to come up soon.
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Post by VemuKhaham on Mar 15, 2005 15:50:26 GMT -5
As you might've noticed, another chapter is 'finished'. However, it's a chapter that covers a large vague area, and it might be possible that I think of new outside influences in the future. Of course, if you think of anything, or see any unreasonable things in what I've done with this chapter so far (again, I'm not a master tactician) or if you think you see something strange, just bring it up. Most of the times it won't be my armies having to sweat with these rules... Besides, even as we speak (or: as I type) I realise I forgot to include flanking and such; the results of maneuvering. But what I'm doing right now, is thinking of a way to do the magic stuff. That is, the ARCANE magic stuff. Divine magic will be handled totally different and very simply. I was thinking of something, and I will soon let you see the result.
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Post by VemuKhaham on Mar 19, 2005 13:08:34 GMT -5
alright; this is another update notice: the magic chapter is now included in the FKo guide. (two chapters actually, cause of the 10000char. cap.) Well, I have decided, as you can see, to allow as much freedom in designing the spell repertoires of your kingdom's wizards, sort of like with designing units. That way I want to allow for different tactics, focuses and such between players. However, alot of arcane magic is closely tied to science, a chapter that I'm going to take up now. It'll be an important chapter, just because it will deal with nearly all of the other rules I've made so far. Ah well, you'll see. Again, my strife for this chapter will be to allow for the same amount of freedom as in creating spells and soldiers; especially in this chapter, cause science will represent the way you develop your kingdom. If any of you have anything to say about this before I'll start, you're encouraged to do so. I want to hear your wishes to make it suit your needs as best as possible. [Reminder to myself: check out spell components rules to adapt them to new rules]
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Post by VemuKhaham on Mar 23, 2005 12:51:30 GMT -5
science is done, but the research list might still expand over time. I hope you all like it. Comments are welcome.
Seeing that I'm as good as done with science now, I'll give you the current state of affairs:
- Battle rules part 2 (largely done) - Special tactical combat modifiers (done, but still expanding) - Arcane Magic - Science - Events (in co-operation with fangor; I'm now going to give this another good look and post it up once I'm sure everything is good with the other rules and such) - World Map (I've been working on this when I wanted to get a break from the usual rules-creating, so by now I've nearly completed this also) - Racial Advantages and such - things I didn't come up with as of yet, and more miscellaneous things like espionage, adventures, siege, morale etc etc. Some of these things might also be included in other chapters.
So, it won't be too long anymore before the prologue game'll start. Now I'm going to recheck the Events-chapter Fangor made, and it won't be long before I post it as well.
-VK
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Post by VemuKhaham on Mar 24, 2005 8:51:00 GMT -5
I just looked at the FKo Rules Guide on a different pc with a lower resolution as my own, and I noticed that the lines ran too broad to fit on the screen. Therefore, I was worried that maybe someone else has troubles with this as well, and if so, I'll try and fix it if I'm able. It's really annoying to constantly having to scroll not only up and down but also from left to right. So if anyone is having this problem, let me know please.
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