Hybrid System Discussions

[K Man]

jolith said:

I'll throw in the question here too. Since we'll be doing straight M&M how many PP are you starting us with, and at what PL? Are we still starting with 100? Or we getting more now since we have to spend them on starting stats and what not.

Also, are you going to have us make a normal person, then add on powers? Just like before?m

I liked Deekin's and Udjat's idea:

theudjat said:

deekin said:

Start out with Pl 4 Heros, then add superpowers on top of that.
Hell, I'd use the Random power tables out of the Masterminds Guide to roll randomly for our heros powers.

This seems like a feasible plan. Ban Powers for the PL4 amount, then take power points for the other 5 PL's (5-9) to use strictly for powers.

That'd give us 60 PP to build 'normal' humans, and 75 points for powers.

Does that sound alright?

[Rojito]

Well personally i would rather have done D20 Modern/Past Supers campaign, but i know how difficult merging the two systems would be so i am not going to push it
I will need assistance with building my character, the current... design wont work so i will come up with a new concept and will see what i can do with that.

[Toptomcat]

Sounds good. I'll get started on the re-vamp.

[TheUdjat]

rojito said:

Well personally i would rather have done D20 Modern/Past Supers campaign, but i know how difficult merging the two systems would be so i am not going to push it
I will need assistance with building my character, the current... design wont work so i will come up with a new concept and will see what i can do with that.

Rojito, you seem to be going for very tech-based and such. Would you like to borrow some of my character concepts? I was originally going to go with a radio-themed character with lots of communication, comprehend, super-senses, conceal, etc. Very handy, with a vicious microwave blast to go with things.

But I'm considering going with another concept (a sort of eternal soldier), possibly to help us with our lack of a Captain if nobody else steps up. If you'd like my old concept, I'd be glad to PM you some of the details, and you can take/leave what you like.

[Rojito]

New character up, old Wrestler, drafted outa high school, ruining his dreams of Olympic stardome one day lol or thats the though anyway, lemme know what ya'll think and how i screwed up

Well, I was going to make a very stealthy recon type guy. Giving him invisibility, enhanced senses (sight, smell, hearing). Not sure yet as to which offensive abilities to give him. Maybe just super strength, but maybe something else. Was also thinking plant control, but not sure if I want to head down that path.m

[chunker]

Since at least Rojo agreed, I'll note that the downside of canning d20 is that d20's a lot better for building our "normal" characters, which I assume we'll be more often than we are super...
So, do PL 4 limits apply to the attack/defense of our normal char's? Or can we build stats equivalent to our 4th level d20's (which might go higher for attack/defense but probably not damage)?

I'm still planning on an Alternate Form (brick) fighter. The upside is that this super is much easier to build.m

[Rojito]

i say stick with the pl4 cap, i've already thrown together a character with a new build of this. Still rather strong if what we are fighting are NOT already supers so. I must say though i prefered the background idea of D20 to MnM cause the feel of it was more what i thought you wanted us to be in the descriptive text. Honestly i would rather go D20 and you design/give us 'superpowers' of your own chooseing than play a MnM (nothing againts MnM but it is more set for a 'City of Heroes' setting over just a few heroes with these special capabilities.)

[TheUdjat]

We're not using the setting from M&M, Rojito. Just the mechanics.

[Rojito]

Aye, but so what our Enemys wont have access to super powers? ok then they are at a very distinct disadvantage. the D20 aspect gave us our .... i dont know weakness, our connection to the enemies, an area they could easily surpass us in. What now? are you going to make d20 characters for us to fight? our powers will stomp them. even with the restrictions. Because we build our BASE character super this time. i dont know i just dont understand it all but i am willing to try it.

[TheUdjat]

rojito said:

Aye, but so what our Enemys wont have access to super powers? ok then they are at a very distinct disadvantage. the D20 aspect gave us our .... i dont know weakness, our connection to the enemies, an area they could easily surpass us in. What now? are you going to make d20 characters for us to fight? our powers will stomp them. even with the restrictions. Because we build our BASE character super this time. i dont know i just dont understand it all but i am willing to try it.

I'm starting to think you really don't.

The base character is still non-super, because up to PL4, you can only spend on non-Power stuff. AFTER PL4, you can only spend on Power stuff, which restricts your 'normal' self to PL4.

Actually, with M&M we get less points for powers, so we're not really as powerful in that regard.

Yes, we will have M&M enemies (I suspect), though in truth these aren't so different from d20 foes. And honestly, we probably will do a fair amount of stompage, because we are superheroes... but at the same time, our powers hurt us, and I can't imagine a superhero game without its share of supervillains. I trust KMan to come up with something suitably difficult for us to face, and I'm sure our powers will disappear a few times and make us average joes, or else why would he have us keep the two versions separate?

[Toptomcat]

Our powers will still damage us.

[K Man]

And to add to all this suspicion, there will be enemies like you--supermen. If you read the backstory carefully;

...the lab was about to be packed with two dozen of the "Reich's Finest"...

And they were going to load the amber into the machine and turn it on...

You think I'd let you be the only mutants in the game? ...come on! In all seriousness, I understand you guys will be super, yes those powers will hurt you, but I know everyone is looking forward to saving some regular soldiers by hurling tanks, stopping bullets or absorbing blasts. I won't deny that but I do need some villains built for your power level. You will see other supermen and they will be enemies.

[chunker]

Udjat has posted a character that adhere's to the Power Level limits of 4 & 9, and I'll use it as frame of reference for my remaining questions:

For the M&M rules version, when does he make a save for using "powers"? I was planning to use several of the same powers (Enh Str, Enh Con, Impervious, Immunity) but use the Alternate Form ability to clearly delineate when he was using them. Does Sgt. Storm have to make a save whenever his +9 Defense applies or his +9 Toughness? Or just when his "human" +4 would not have worked? Does he save when he makes a Melee attack with his new +9 Attack bonus and does damage with his Enhanced Strength?

And what kind of damage do you take when using powers (Not Temp HP)?

[K Man]

For the M&M rules version, when does he make a save for using "powers"? I was planning to use several of the same powers (Enh Str, Enh Con, Impervious, Immunity) but use the Alternate Form ability to clearly delineate when he was using them. Does Sgt. Storm have to make a save whenever his +9 Defense applies or his +9 Toughness? Or just when his "human" +4 would not have worked? Does he save when he makes a Melee attack with his new +9 Attack bonus and does damage with his Enhanced Strength?

And what kind of damage do you take when using powers (Not Temp HP)?

I think we had decided to go with the Power Surge rules that Deek had posted. Basically anytime you use your powers, or are in a stressful condition...you risk a wild surge. Power surges (even if successfully avoided) build towards The power surge rules are listed here:

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Power Surges

Sometimes superhuman powers surge out of control, often with serious consequences. This is a new power drawback, known as a power surge. The Power Surge drawback is generally Common and Strong, worth 4 power points. Power surges are optional, since they’re somewhat complex and require a separate system of tracking surge points, outlined here.

But Do I Get Points for It?

It’s up to the Gamemaster whether or not characters get the drawback points for Power Surge. If Power Surge is required of all superhumans in the setting, the GM can simply say it isn’t worth any points, since it’s series-specific and all superhumans suffer from it. On the other hand, the GM can also decide characters deserve the extra points for having to deal with the risks of power surges.

When Power Surges Occur

A power surge may occur when any of the following conditions are met:

• The paragon uses extra effort to enhance a power in some way, whether increasing the power’s rank temporarily, or gaining a temporary power feat. The chance of a power surge is the same whether or not the player spends a hero point to ignore the fatigue of extra effort.

• A player rolls a natural 1 on any roll involving an active use of a power (including attack rolls, and skill, ability, or power checks). This does not apply to passive uses of powers, such as Protection.

• The character is stunned. This may occur in combat or from other effects.

• When the character is under extreme emotional stress. This may be due to mental or psychological complications, or decided by roleplaying and the Gamemaster’s judgment. It’s also possible to goad someone into a power surge using interaction skills like Bluff and Intimidate, but the GM should require at least two successful checks against the target, and may wish to give the character a +2 or better bonus on checks to avoid this sort of manipulation.

When any of the conditions are met, the player makes a Will saving throw, with a Difficulty Class of 10 plus the character’s power level (the series power level for player characters or an NPC’s calculated power level). Thus, as paragons become more powerful, their powers become more difficult to control, although their Will save bonus may also increase.

In cases where multiple trigger conditions apply, each additional condition increases the DC of the Will saving throw by +2. A character is only required to make one Will save per round to avoid power surges, regardless of the number of conditions, and makes only one save per condition for as long as that condition applies. So only one saving throw is required for a particular emotional stress or stunned condition, for example, even if it lasts longer than a round.

A successful Will save means no power surge but the character gains a surge point. A failed Will save means a power surge occurs. Players may spend hero points to improve Will saves and avoid power surges.

Power Surge Effects

A power surge causes the character’s powers to go out of control. It is much like an uncontrolled use of extra effort, with results dictated by the Gamemaster.

The character is stunned by the power surge with the usual effects: loss of the character’s next action and loss of dodge bonus to Defense, with an additional –2 to Defense. The player can spend a hero point to shake off this stun condition normally, although this does not prevent the power surge from occurring.
On the round after the power surge ends, the character is fatigued and recovers from this fatigue normally. If the character was already fatigued (such as from a previous use of extra effort), then he is exhausted, if exhausted, then he becomes unconscious. The player may also spend a hero point to ignore the fatigue of a power surge.

For a normal power surge, apply the effects of extra effort and the Uncontrolled flaw to one of the character’s powers. The Gamemaster decides the exact effects of any given power surge, with input from the players, as desired. Possible power surge effects include:

• A power is used for an immediate attack against a random target with a +2 bonus to power rank. The attack is rolled normally, using the character’s normal attack bonus.

• The character acquires a new power feat (like a normal use of extra effort) that activates wildly on its own. A superhuman with Energy Blast might suddenly acquire an area version as a power stunt, emitting an omni-directional blast of power, or a Dazzle effect as a power stunt, releasing a cascade of blinding light.

• One of the character’s other powers activates at random and at +2 power rank, such as a flying character suddenly taking off at full speed or a teleporter vanishing into thin air.
Continuous Power Surges

If a power surge involves an instant power like Energy Blast, then its effects occur and end immediately, although the after-effects may linger for some time. A surge involving a sustained or continuous power may continue after the initial round. Each round after the initial surge, the player makes another Will save for the character with the same DC, but a +1 bonus for each round. A successful save means the superhuman gets the surge under control and its effects stop.

A failed save means the surge continues another round. The surge may continue with the same effects as before, or it may change, depending on the Gamemaster’s whim. The surge doesn’t grow any more powerful, but an out-of-control flier may suddenly change direction, or a character uncontrollably broadcasting his emotions may change the feeling he’s generating.

A successful Will save to stop an ongoing power surge does not earn a surge point, unlike a save to prevent a power surge from occurring.

Surge Points

The previous section describes the normal effects of a power surge. Those change if the character has garnered any surge points from resisting previous power surges. Each successful Will saving throw to avoid a power surge causes the character to acquire a surge point. Characters can accumulate an unlimited number of these points and they are difficult to get rid of (see following). Surge points represent a build-up of power; by resisting a power surge the character only delays it, and ensures the surge will be more severe when it finally does happen.
When a character with surge points fails a Will save to avoid a power surge, the surge points augment the effects of the surge. The Gamemaster applies all accumulated surge points as if they were hero points, except surge points must be spent at all once and their effects are cumulative. Surge points can have any of the effects hero points do and enable a power surge to apply multiple levels of extra effort (much like Extraordinary Effort in Chapter Six).

Some examples of the effects of surge points include:

• Applying additional increases to the affected power’s rank: +2 per surge point. As a general rule, most powers won’t exceed twice their normal rank, but this is at the GM’s discretion.

• Applying additional power feats. The most common is the Progression feat (see Power Feats, M&M, page 108).

• Improving die rolls associated with the power surge. One surge point allows the GM to add +10 any die roll associated with the surge that’s 10 or less. Two surge points turn any such die roll into an automatic 20 (although not a natural 20). This only applies to rolls made by the Gamemaster for the affected power, not things like saving throws or other checks made against the power’s effects.

After a character suffers a power surge, the character’s surge point total is reset to 0 and he begins building up surge points again from successful Will saves until a new power surge occurs.
Eliminating Surge Points

Naturally, characters try to avoid power surges as much as possible. However, the more you avoid a power surge, the worse it will be when you inevitably succumb and lose control. A character with enough surge points built up can do considerable damage. Therefore, characters may try to find ways to “bleed off” their excess power, developing various sorts of “pressure valves” to keep them under control.

One means is for the character to trigger a deliberate power surge, under controlled conditions. You can always choose not to make a saving throw to prevent a power surge, so some may choose to go somewhere suitably isolated, where they can trigger a power surge with a measure of safety and “blow off steam” before they lose control.

The drawback is the unpredictable nature of power surges. The character doesn’t have any control over how the surge manifests and, the broader the character’s powers, the more unpredictable the surge becomes. Since power surges can add power feats to a power (including Alternate Powers), there’s no telling what might happen. Therefore, it’s questionable whether or not any place is entirely “safe” for setting off a surge. For example, a character out in an isolated area like the Sahara Desert or Antarctica might trigger a power surge that creates an environmental catastrophe, such as a massive shockwave
creating a desert storm or a heat pulse melting a tremendous amount of polar ice or turning desert sand into a sheet of glass.
Characters capable of surviving in space and leaving Earth have an additional option: they can trigger a power surge in deep space, with nothing nearby for millions of miles. This is the safest possible alternative, but there’s still no way of knowing what might happen.

A space-faring character is still capable of generating energy pulses that might affect Earth in some way, from interfering with communications to bombarding the planet with increased levels of radiation, for example. Bring things like mental powers into play, and almost anything could happen.

The other drawback to deliberate power surges is that a surge stuns the character (unless the player uses a hero point to overcome this). This means characters may be momentarily bereft of their protective powers after they surge. So a space-faring character must have appropriate Immunities; otherwise the cure is far worse than the malady as the character is exposed to the vacuum of space. An opponent may lie in wait and try to take advantage of the character’s momentary disorientation and fatigue. There’s also the possibility of encountering trouble on the way to an isolated locale to safely trigger a power surge. This may cause the character to surge prematurely.

The other means of eliminating surge points is the opposite of a deliberate power surge. A character who refrains from using any powers at all for a length of time can slowly “bleed off” the excess energies leading to power surges. This takes considerable time: a character must not use any powers for a full week to eliminate a single surge point. This includes continuous powers, which must be “switched off” during this time. Permanent powers still function, but the character cannot use any other powers during this time. Use of any power, even for a moment, means he has to start the process all over again.
The difficulty with this approach is it renders the character an ordinary mortal while eliminating surge points. This leaves paragons vulnerable to their enemies, although they don’t necessarily advertise their vulnerability (and their enemies may not know the character’s powers are “on hold”). It also generally keeps them from pursing any goals or activities requiring their powers. In fact, some paranormals simply can’t take a week off when there’s so much for them to do. The GM may call for Will saves to resist the temptation to use powers while trying to shed surge points.

A character trying to avoid using any powers, but forced into a situation where power use is necessary, may be considered under the kind of stress that can cause a power surge. So, the effort of trying to desperately refrain from power use may actually trigger the power surge the character is hoping to avoid in the first place!

Power Surge Variants

The default assumption is power surges are potentially harmful to everyone except the character causing them. That doesn’t have to be the case, however. Gamemasters wanting to add a different element of risk to power surges may decide the characters are at the greatest risk. Surging powers may destroy their users or alter them beyond recognition.

Fortitude Surges

In this variant, substitute Fortitude saving throws where power surges normally call for Will saving throws. This makes controlling power surges more a matter of health, endurance, and constitution rather than willpower and self-control. Strong, healthy characters are less prone to power surges than physical weaklings, and mental discipline has nothing to do with controlling a power surge. This typically means surges are more of a biological process, perhaps even linked to a kind of degenerative illness or physical defect more likely to affect those with less Fortitude.

Surge Point Penaltenalty

The default assumption is the buildup of surge points has no adverse effects on characters until they fail a Will save and a power surge occurs. Some Gamemasters may wish to have the buildup make characters more prone to power surges. In this case, apply a penalty to the Will save against power surges equal to his current surge point total. So a character with 3 surge points suffers a –3 penalty on saves to avoid further power surges. This means there’s a finite number of surge points a character can build up before inevitably failing a Will save, and it makes racking up surge points a more serious matter.

Surge Damage

Instead of, or in addition to, their other effects, power surges are potentially harmful and may cause lasting or permanent damage to the characters causing them, even leading to death. When a damaging power surge occurs, the player must make a Fortitude saving throw against a lethal damage bonus equal to half the character’s power level. Players can spend hero points normally on the save against a damaging power surge. You can also choose to have damaging power surges resisted by a different save, such as Will.

At the GM’s option, the number of surge points the character possesses may increase the damaging effects of a power surge. Increase the surge’s damage bonus by 1 per surge point. This means massive power surges are more likely to seriously injure or kill.

Surge Taint

Out-of-control powers may reshape or warp their wielders in various ways. Instead of, or in addition to, its normal effects, a power surge gives the character taint (see Taint previously in this chapter). Each failed power surge check usually results in 1 point of taint, although the GM can vary this amount to achieve the desired effect.

Taint caused by power surges may be of any type found in the setting, although mutations and psychological taint are the most common results. If super-powers are innately “immoral” in some way (all derived from an evil source, for example), then even moral taint is an option.

Death Surges

A paragon’s death throes can potentially unleash a catastrophe. The default assumption is a character’s death doesn’t cause a power surge if the paranormal dies instantly or is unconscious at the time of death. If there’s no chance to react, there’s no chance of provoking a power surge. On the other hand, a prolonged or painful death almost certainly requires a Will save to prevent a surge, and some may choose to forgo the saving throw, hoping to get a last chance at revenge against their killers.
At the Gamemaster’s option, a power surge may occur when a character dies under any conditions. This approach may actually decrease the amount of violence in the series if Power Surge is a common or default drawback, since superhumans won’t be so quick to kill each other if they know each of them is essentially a bomb waiting to go off. Better to defeat, or overpower, a foe and then dispose of them somewhere relatively safe, where the resultant power surge isn’t as dangerous, such as leaving them in a “sure-fire” deathtrap…

Finally, there’s always the possibility of a paranormal’s dying power surge doing something unusual. Perhaps a dying curse is given life by the power surge, or maybe that last surge of power creates an incorporeal “ghost” to cause more trouble in the future. Is it really the spirit of the deceased character or just some power construct? Only the Gamemaster knows for sure.
Death surges, if they exist, may also be far more intense than normal power surges. Gamemasters may decide to apply additional surge points to a death surge, using the guidelines for last-ditch effort (see Mastermind’s Manual, page 82); this will ensure the death of any paragon becomes a spectacular (and potentially cataclysmic) event.

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I'm personally all for the power surge damage rules. is OK?

[Toptomcat]

Looks cool! Go with it.

[K Man]

Missing Jolith's Character, but otherwise seems things are in order. I'll try to get the first game post up Monday.

[Toptomcat]

K Man, your Mythos Creature Hotmail account has an E-mail that will help you run things. I thought of typing up exerpts, but really the whole thing is useful.
Pay special attention to the mass battle rules.

[K Man]

I have not received that email yet--can you resend TTC?

[Toptomcat]

It says either your mailbox is full or it's beyond the individual message size capacity of your E-mail. Do you have another E-mail account? Or, alternatively, WinRAR?