WLD

[spiral]

actually, now might be a good place to talk about mazadir and tamlin. the way I see it, Mazadir won't use Torm's gifts to aid those who might use the help for evil purposes. after seeing him try to murder a celestial, maz definitely puts tamlin in that category.

however, as a rogue, mazadir not aiding him (i.e. roleplaying) is making things pretty deadly for tamlin, and we may well lose him as a result of it.

do I roleplay mazadir? and have u all bite my ass off if tamlin does die?

or is there some compromise..?

the only hook I left for mazadir coming around was him deciding that tamlin coming around after his ordeal was through the will of some evil deity, who wanted to use tamlin for his own purposes. with time, I can roleplay mazadir to decide there may be some other reason tamlin has been kept alive...but he won't be able to offer torm's aid to him while the halfling is so openly anti-torm, and anti-mazadir. can't tamlin work some persuasion on mazadir or something?

[TheZebraShakes™]

well if Mazadir doesn't heal Tamlin then Tamlin's gonna use up the most of the party's healing potions, and those are hard to come by these days. So in a way, by healing Tamlin he helps the party, not to mention, Tamlin's never done anything to hurt the other Party members any more so then anyone else, including Mazadir.

I'd say the paladin is faced with some extrenuating circumstances. Being stuck in a dungeon with a group of people makes you do some pretty crazy things, so I'd think his god won't have a problem taking that into consideration.

[Japic]

Worse case scenario Maz can dispense with the healing and try his damndest to convert Tamlin to good. That's noble cause; show him Torm's light and help the sinner repent his ways. From what I've seen of modern religion most gods are very forgiving. You can murder and rape (and covet and all those small 'sins') all week long so long as you cleanse the palette in confession it would seem. I'm sure there's rooom for this sinner in Torm's infinite grace.... mebbe.

If the sinner is wise he'll atleast play along to stay alive. It's not like he's never lied to anyone before.

[similar]

Tamlin did attempt to point out it was for the good of the group for Mazadir to help him but it seemed to fall on deaf ears. He has now grown to resent the paladin because of his constant insistance of refusing healing whilst offering it to everyone else. This has led him to give up trying with the paladin. Although Tamlin is evil he is always pragmatic, he realizes that down here we all need others to keep going.

I would say that TheZS and Japic are quite right above about it now being down to Mazadir to realize it is for the best.

As I understand Torms strictures the help its followers provide is supposed to be unconditional anyway. Helping someone who is ading the group you are traveling with survive a trap infested dungeon is not really using your aid for evil purposes. Mazadir needs to think on why he is refusing to heal and realise that it ultimately helps everyone.

I'm not sure what additional persuading you think Tamlin could try? He's not going to kiss Mazadirs ass. Instead he is just going to become bitterer and let the enmity between them twist inside him like a posionous snake devouring the little good will he may have had for Mazadir.

So I would say the balls in Mazadirs court. Or anyone elses that wants to persuade him to be more helpful.

[Fangor the Fierce]

Jearghen already tried making sure that Tamlin could gain a little more HP during rest, but yeah, healing from Maz could help out the group in a better way. But, that's his decision to make.

[Fangor the Fierce]

Speaking of tactics, Mazadir has another option that he can actually take advantage of, should he want to take the second line of defense. The Anarchic Dancing Guisarme from the bird-man can be told to attack on it's own and provide an extra attack per round. I think someone should definately use that weapon, since it's dancing. Only thing I see wrong with it is the fact that it is (I believe) a small weapon. Tamlin or Deidra would have no problem, if it's on their list of acceptable weapons due to class. Or, I could switch to a small form, not have a penalty, and use it as well. Any ideas?

[TheZebraShakes™]

I think it should change to the size of whoever's holding it. After all, it was pretty convenient that the deck happened to spit out a small sized guisarme. How often does that happen.

Dancing confuses me a little, do you actually have to know how to use the weapon or can anyone just use it since it's dancing and therefore you are not actually touching it to control it. If you do need the ability to use the weapon, then no, tamlin and deidre cant use it (not that they'd want to get close enough to use it most of the time anyway) and neither can jearghen as I don't believe that monsterous humanoids are proficient with martial weapons. But again, why would you even have to know how to use it.

And yeah, after that double night's worth of healing and the other rest we had, Tamlin's not too low on HP. Mazadir doesn't really have to heal him now, but I don't think that in the future it would be right to continue to refuse him healing if he is desperately in need, though I think we're making a bigger deal of this then it's worth as Mazadir can't heal all that much right now, and whatever he has is probably going to go to the most injured of the fighters first, and with that reflex save of his combined with evasion, Tamlin's not going to be first on the list to get all that messed up by the heavy damage dealing traps.

So basically, no big deal for now, but I don't think that in the future he should refuse tamlin healing, via the skill or the cure spells, granted, if more people are just as hurt, he has every right to prioritize, but it's not really worth it for the paladin to just turn his back on him and whoever else he gets angry with.

[Fangor the Fierce]

Jearghen is proficient with Martial Weapons, so he could actually use it. If not proficient with it, then there is something like a -2 or -4 penalty to attacks with the weapon, I can't remember which.

[TheZebraShakes™]

-4

[spiral]

"As I understand Torms strictures the help its followers provide is supposed to be unconditional anyway."

That's not what they taught Maz at paladin school. Apparently, using Torm's gifts to help those who may use the aid for evil purposes (like killing angels), is most definitely against the "law".

"but it's not really worth it for the paladin to just turn his back on him and whoever else he gets angry with."

Zeeb, that is *exactly* the kind of person Mazadir is! If you all want me to play him differently, I need more time to roleplay toward that goal. I don't want to just change overnight for sake of tactics. I come here to roleplay. =(

At the end of the day, Mazadir is not who I would have chosen to play, but I'm enjoying the challenge, as he's mo righteous, and frankly, annoying/stubborn. The fact he's not too helpful all the time is tough. Does nobody else think we gain, in terms of roleplay, from some inner-party strife?

I agree with Japic, why does Tamlin have to be so stubborn too? Also, why does he have to kill angels in front of the paladin, and then mock him about not healing him?

I think Maz and Tamlin are just not going to get along.

*But*, if Maz gets some more time for the book the angel gave him, he may learn some new ideas about forgiveness...and that could benefit everybody.

[TheZebraShakes™]

I don't really have a problem with however you want to roleplay him. Like I said, we're probably making a bigger deal of this then it's worth.

We all knew that when similar chose the prestige class for Tamlin and Tamlin set out to kill the angel to meet the requirements that it was probably going to lead to a lot of trouble and people hating him within the group. Granted, I don't think Tamlin intended to kill the angel with Mazadir standing right there, maybe someone jumped the gun a little on that call, but that's the way things worked out. Right now it is understandable for Maz not to help Tamlin recover from the wounds he got from that battle.

But again, Mazadir is Mazadir, and even when Cel was playing him, it was always heal Mazadir first and then ask if anyone was alright later, even when Tiffany and Jearghen were lying unconscious after getting slammed with a fireball trap.

Really, you can play however you want and no one's insisting that you do otherwise, just throwing out suggestions for Mazadir to ponder while he's down there. Hopefully Tamlin won't take anymore damage anyway.