Hybrid System Discussions

[K Man]

This thread can be used to hammer out the dilemmas that form from this hybrid system. Again, I will admit this is my first attempt at running Mutants & Masterminds so I turn to the players for lots of help and self-governance.

If you see something that is a glaring oversight or a problem, let me know and we'll hammer it out here.

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chunker said:

Neat concept: Roland of Gilead/Hawkeye/Bullseye or maybe Hammy from Over the Hedge with guns!

However, the mechanics raise several questions about the hybrid rules:

1) Can we use points to improve Attack & Defense? It doesn't seem to blend with the D20, which includes Att & Def in class levels. Also, the totals for these are artificially capped/balance in M&M by Power Level rules.

2) How does the 5 ranks guideline apply here? In M&M, Power Level would govern overall Attack/Defense + overall Toughness/Damage and the powers affecting those stats, but you could still have Immunity 9 (life support) since it doesn't affect those stats. Or does it mean we can only have powers up to rank 5? Can we enhance abilities by more than 5? Can you stack stuff (Protection 5 + Density 4 for Protection 7?)?

3) "Extra Attacks"? I can't find this option in my 2e book. Is it 1e? Are we using 1e or 2e? Again, it doesn't seem to fit the d20 side which has its own mechanics for extra attacks (and M&M doesn't have extra for high BAB, or two-weapon fighting or rapid shot). The element of extra attacks seems to be missing in M&M 2e. Even Quickness and Additional Limbs don't read like they allow extra attacks.

4) Are we using M&M Feats (like Improved Evasion/ranked Evasion, Improved Aim)? Or just d20 Feats? Do super Feats require prerequisites (Shot on the Run, Burst Fire)?

5) Hero Points? Or just Action Points? Or a hybrid of both?

Anyway, I just thought we were going with something closer to d20, with M&M supplement just for powers. Let me know so I can start buildin'!

(Deekin, sorry to use your thread, but I think your char brings up a lot of good questions about the hybrid rules for the group. The overall power of the campaign can vary a lot on interpretation...)m

deekin said:

chunker said:

Neat concept: Roland of Gilead/Hawkeye/Bullseye or maybe Hammy from Over the Hedge with guns!

However, the mechanics raise several questions about the hybrid rules:

1) Can we use points to improve Attack & Defense? It doesn't seem to blend with the D20, which includes Att & Def in class levels. Also, the totals for these are artificially capped/balance in M&M by Power Level rules.

2) How does the 5 ranks guideline apply here? In M&M, Power Level would govern overall Attack/Defense + overall Toughness/Damage and the powers affecting those stats, but you could still have Immunity 9 (life support) since it doesn't affect those stats. Or does it mean we can only have powers up to rank 5? Can we enhance abilities by more than 5? Can you stack stuff (Protection 5 + Density 4 for Protection 7?)?

3) "Extra Attacks"? I can't find this option in my 2e book. Is it 1e? Are we using 1e or 2e? Again, it doesn't seem to fit the d20 side which has its own mechanics for extra attacks (and M&M doesn't have extra for high BAB, or two-weapon fighting or rapid shot). The element of extra attacks seems to be missing in M&M 2e. Even Quickness and Additional Limbs don't read like they allow extra attacks.

4) Are we using M&M Feats (like Improved Evasion/ranked Evasion, Improved Aim)? Or just d20 Feats? Do super Feats require prerequisites (Shot on the Run, Burst Fire)?

5) Hero Points? Or just Action Points? Or a hybrid of both?

Anyway, I just thought we were going with something closer to d20, with M&M supplement just for powers. Let me know so I can start buildin'!

(Deekin, sorry to use your thread, but I think your char brings up a lot of good questions about the hybrid rules for the group. The overall power of the campaign can vary a lot on interpretation...)m

Thanks, but the concept was more Bullet-time, less hyper accuracy.

1)I wish I knew. I got Enhanced Attack/Def Becouse the Chart for raision Ability Scores capped out at 26.

2)I don't know about Caps, but I think we were going for a PL 7.

3) Extra Attacks in from the Masterminds Guide.

4) I'm Not Clear on that.

5) The Hero Points are a Superpower. I need them to Fuel my Luck control.

1) I agree, the upping of attack and defense doesn't fit with the D20 Modern rules. The D20 system inherits attack and defense from many other stats (STR, Level etc) and I don't think just pumping the attack/defense is in the spirit of the hybrid. There are already ways to pump scores that grant attack/defense, and feats to purchase that would help as well.

2) Yes, Deeking is right when I said the Power Level is 7. That's what M&M says my power level should be for the points I doled out, but I feel that a rank of 5 in any one thing is good enough. I'm open to higher, but that would be a player consensus. As far as stacking things for a total higher bonus in one thing, I don't see a problem with it because it means a sort of specialization in that thing (super-defense for instance for a 'tank' character) but again, I lean on you guys for more information on breaking-power.

3) I know extra attacks come with a higher BaB in D20, but super-attacks make sense. If you spend points on getting extra attacks, I think this is still in the spirit of the system. Ultra-quick trigger finger, hyper control over ballistics etc...it makes sense to me.

4) I had planned on allowing you purchase either with your character points. If you want to purchase improved aim and burst fire, I don't see a problem with it. So long as they remain separate from your base PC, this seems still in the spirit.

5) No standard Hero Points. Open to action points (can't remember if they are standard or not).

Any other questions? Looks like we've got our players, just need to hammer out PCs and start playing.

[Deekin]

1) I agree, the upping of attack and defense doesn't fit with the D20 Modern rules. The D20 system inherits attack and defense from many other stats (STR, Level etc) and I don't think just pumping the attack/defense is in the spirit of the hybrid. There are already ways to pump scores that grant attack/defense, and feats to purchase that would help as well.

Technicly, I bought Dodge Focus, And Attack Focus Feats

2) Yes, Deeking is right when I said the Power Level is 7. That's what M&M says my power level should be for the points I doled out, but I feel that a rank of 5 in any one thing is good enough. I'm open to higher, but that would be a player consensus. As far as stacking things for a total higher bonus in one thing, I don't see a problem with it because it means a sort of specialization in that thing (super-defense for instance for a 'tank' character) but again, I lean on you guys for more information on breaking-power.

I have more than 5 Ranks in Overdrive, but that's just a container.

3) I know extra attacks come with a higher BaB in D20, but super-attacks make sense. If you spend points on getting extra attacks, I think this is still in the spirit of the system. Ultra-quick trigger finger, hyper control over ballistics etc...it makes sense to me.

4) I had planned on allowing you purchase either with your character points. If you want to purchase improved aim and burst fire, I don't see a problem with it. So long as they remain separate from your base PC, this seems still in the spirit.

Yeah, I only get them in Overdrive

5) No standard Hero Points. Open to action points (can't remember if they are standard or not).

Action points are Standard in D20 Modern. I was just Going to use my Hero points to fuel my Luck Control Power, however, if we arn't using them at all , I need to find away to spend 15 more points

Any other questions? Looks like we've got our players, just need to hammer out PCs and start playing.

[Toptomcat]

admin said:

I don't know about Caps, but I think we were going for a PL 7.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. What? PL 7 is what M&M reccomends for PCs with 100 power points, true- but they have to buy their ability scores, BAB, Defense, skills, feats...all things that we get essentially for free. I have no idea what I'll do with all those points if we're capping things like that.

[K Man]

toptomcat said:

admin said:

I don't know about Caps, but I think we were going for a PL 7.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. What? PL 7 is what M&M reccomends for PCs with 100 power points, true- but they have to buy their ability scores, BAB, Defense, skills, feats...all things that we get essentially for free. I have no idea what I'll do with all those points if we're capping things like that.

What would you suggest otherwise TTC? I think everyone else was able to spend their points...you could always give them back to me for use on the BBEG .

[TheUdjat]

In regards to the ranks of powers, note that Power Level typically refers to one's total available bonus for offense/defense/saves/DCs. Even in M&M, it's possible to have 20 ranks in something while still being PL 7.

By giving us lots of points and a PL 7 limit (which in essence limits strictly damaging and defensive abilities), you're encouraging more powers on the table. What TTC is saying is that raising the PL to something higher (PL 8-10, for instance), but keeping the points available the same, would be more reasonable.

The other option, of course, would be to lower our points available by, I don't know, 20 or so. It really depends on what you want to do.

Personally, I had no trouble burning my points while not exceeding rank 7. But I'm going for a multitude of 'little' powers - Comprehend, Communicate, Teleport, Super-Senses, Concealment, etc. - and one fairly versatile array of 'damage' powers (mostly various forms of a Blast).

So, on the one hand, I see where TTC is coming from. On the other hand, I have no problem with things as they are. But TTC seems to be going for one or two big powers instead of a bunch of little ones.

[TheUdjat]

Sorry to double post, but one other thing about the previous items.

It was asked which feats were using, and you said both - this is problematic, because M&M has feats with literally the same name, but slightly different functions (much of this stems from M&M not having classes, and because there are no AoO's). My suggestion would be to use d20 Modern feats, since they are designed for use by d20 Modern - M&M feats may prove inconvenient and unwieldy, except in some possible cases where there's no precedent in d20 Modern.

[chunker]

I agree 100 pts on top of abilities is closer to PL8-9 when you consider the ability buy.

Note that Blast 5, using the 5 ranks guideline would do 3d6 damage. A 1930s machine gun + Burst Fire can do 4d6 or 4d8 (=Blast 6-7).

More to the point:
a) Should I be building a character who can keep up with "X-Ray Laser: All within a 5' wide, 200' long line take 9d6 damage, ignoring Damage Reduction or Hardness."?
b) Or did we have something more tame in mind?

Based on the 5 ranks suggestion and the fact that we have the HP of 4th level d20 characters, I thought the campaign flavor was more toned down. If we're going for b, I suggest:
1) Fewer points, 50-80.
2) A hard limit of 5-6 ranks. Or perhaps upper limits to max damage, AC, attack, kind of like the M&M Power Level.
3) No M&M feats.
I think the lower power campaign would be easier for delving into a hybrid system and save us some frustration, but I'm flexible. I'm sure I could come up with something uber...

[K Man]

Alright Alright, PL 9 it is.

[Toptomcat]

chunker said:

a) Should I be building a character who can keep up with "X-Ray Laser: All within a 5' wide, 200' long line take 9d6 damage, ignoring Damage Reduction or Hardness."?

I wouldn't have done that if Dr. Hall weren't:
1. Barred from taking any aggressive action by the Geneva Convention, which the armies of World War II actually took fairly seriously:
2. A major believer in the sanctity of human life, and thus psychologically unlikely to use the power:
3. Posessed of a mediocre Fort save and low overall hit point total, limiting the number of uses of the power:
and
4. Had it deliberately made even harder for him to use that particular power on a regular baisis by raising the Fort DC to use it by 5 and doubling the backlash damage.
In addition, I'm eliminating the line area aspect of the power.

The intent is a last-ditch, kill-the-tank-or-we're-all-dead power: not something that's supposed to be used to burn the Jerries by the hundreds.

Question, considering we're using the Hybrid between the two systems, how exactly are you going to work super strength? I was thinking about creating someone with super strength, but I was hoping for maybe a clarification on how you plan to do that.

Right now, according to the rule set you wrote up, I'd have to spend 54 of my 100 points to up my Str from a 14 to a 26. Of course, there is a power called Enhanced Strength that costs 1 for 1 point. I assume the enhanced strength would cost more?

Also, according to the M&M chart you need somewhere near a 60 str in order to lift a tank. Are you going to use that same chart for this game? If so, then I could pick up 7 ranks of super strength and have an effective 70 str for lifting and what not. Is that your plan? To use that super strength chart?m

[TheUdjat]

Shoot. Maybe it would just be less trouble to go straight M&M. I'd feel something was lost in the 'feel' of the game, but at least we wouldn't have conversion questions to slow things down.

I'm in agreement with TheUdjat. I just think they'll be too many questions and concerns by combining the two systems. Though, I'll still give it a try if that's what the majority wants.

[Toptomcat]

I think I agree as well. I voted for the conversion, but that was before I saw how much all the little things that are different between the two systems really matter.
Sorry for putting you through all this, K Man...

[Deekin]

I voted for Pure M&M. That vote still stands.

I'm fine with the Hybrid system mind you, but Pure M&M would have been easier.

Start out with Pl 4 Heros, then add superpowers on top of that.
Hell, I'd use the Random power tables out of the Masterminds Guide to roll randomly for our heros powers.

[TheUdjat]

deekin said:

Start out with Pl 4 Heros, then add superpowers on top of that.
Hell, I'd use the Random power tables out of the Masterminds Guide to roll randomly for our heros powers.

This seems like a feasible plan. Ban Powers for the PL4 amount, then take power points for the other 5 PL's (5-9) to use strictly for powers.

That'd give us 60 PP to build 'normal' humans, and 75 points for powers.

And sorry that we're all suddenly changing our minds on this KMan. I'd hate to undo all the work you've done on this Hybrid plan so far, but before we get even deeper, it seems like it might be wiser to just go back to pure M&M. I think it'd lessen the work you'd have to do during the game, too, which is always a plus (speaking as a DM of multiple games on these boards, I know finding time for all this stuff can be difficult).

[K Man]

Well, this is totally up to you guys. This is your game. Just know, as I've said time and time again, I've never run a straight M&M game before. If you guys are willing to put up with my inadequacies, I'd be willing to let it be straight M&M.

Let me know...it seems like consensus is leaning.

It's ok, even though you've never run an M&M game, I doubt you've run a hybrid M&M/d20 Modern, which no one has played in before. So at least you have some experience players that can help you out with the rules, if we go straight M&M that is.

[chunker]

I still like the d20 Hybrid better, and I think the GM should pick the system/rules. All it needed was some balance/direction on power level. You've declared PL 9. What does that mean?

e.g. Maximum of +9 to hit for maximum of 42 damage (in the absence of tradeoffs). Maximum AC 19 with DR 27(?), AC 28 with DR 0. Maximum power DC 19. No more than 11 ranks in a power.

I can do M&M. Udj's idea might work for preserving our "human side" and the campaign flavor. D20 mod still seems like a better fit for the setting, and I strongly believe GM preference (and access to content) should trump given how much more work it is to GM.

[K Man]

I understand the GM should have final say, but really this comes down to me telling my story and really the debate is the language its told in. I could honestly care less, just M&M will be a learning curve for me.

Still seems consensus is total M&M. Is everyone OK with this? Any more objections? If not, assume M&M and I'll try to get started by Friday 01/25/2008 or Monday 01/28/2008.

Please have your PCs done by then.

I'll throw in the question here too. Since we'll be doing straight M&M how many PP are you starting us with, and at what PL? Are we still starting with 100? Or we getting more now since we have to spend them on starting stats and what not.

Also, are you going to have us make a normal person, then add on powers? Just like before?m