Mellon
Seasoned Warrior
Posts: 51
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Post by Mellon on May 29, 2006 16:02:30 GMT -5
Government outline for Port Rislan
Constitutional monarchy, aristocracy and democracy
The governmental form of Port Rislan cannot be described in one word. Instead, it combines elements from an aristocracy, as well as a democracy and a constitutional monarchy. A general right to vote exists, but only nobles and certain upper-class citizens can be elected, and of course there is a king.
The Sovereign Council
The Sovereign Council holds ultimate reign over Port Rislan. It has absolute sovereignty and is supreme to all other institutions of government, meaning all governmental power (legislative, executive and judiciary) in the city-state is derived from – and therefore can be traced back to – the Council. Only it can make or change laws, and only the Council stands above the law. This also means it cannot limit its own powers by law, however. The Sovereign Council rules by majority vote.
The council members are elected through democratic means, through means of a plurality voting district system. This means the city and surrounding lands are divided into districts, and each district elects one representative for the Sovereign Council. There is a general right to vote, though exceptions may exist (women, certain races …). The right to be elected as a Council member is limited to nobility and other citizens of a certain wealth, however. This voting system looks very democratic at first glance. However, for a number of reasons, this is not the case. First of all, because only society’s elite can be elected on the Council, the Council mainly represents the elite’s interests. Also, the way the city is divided into districts is unfair; districts in rich areas of Port Rislan are much smaller – and therefore greater in number – then poorer districts, so that a rich man’s vote is worth significantly more then a commoner’s.
The King
The King of Port Rislan is not a traditional monarch and it is not a hereditary title. In stead, he is elected by the members of the Sovereign Council from amongst their own ranks. The King is chairman or president of the Sovereign Council and has powers as such. He can summon meetings of the Council, and mainly decides its agenda. Also, the King has a great number of executive powers, delegated to him by the Council.
Furthermore, in times of crisis (war, natural disaster, rebellion), the Sovereign Council may decide to momentarily transfer its sovereignty to the King, to improve the government’s responsiveness to emergencies.
Other governmental bodies
Beside the two institutions mentioned above, there is a great number of government officials at work in Port Rislan. These officials are all directly, or indirectly, appointed by the Sovereign Council. Amongst them are judges, army officers, officers of the city guard, fire-fighters and tax collectors.
Here's a rudimentary outline of what our government could look like. I realize some parts of the outline (the elected king, the general right to vote, the name "Sovereign Council"(?)) are perhaps somewhat controversial, but these are open for debate of course.
Overal, I think this structure leaves much room for political intrigue, corruption (gerrymandering, selling votes etc.) and guild influence.
Still, there are several questions that need answering:
- How many members does the council have?
- Which upper-class citizens can be elected on the council. Those who possess a certain amount of wealth? Perhaps you can buy the right to vote...
- What are the exact powers of the King?
- To whom does the "general right to vote" apply?
etc.
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Post by Lin on May 29, 2006 21:39:33 GMT -5
Good start, certainly. I didn't expect an elected king and after reading the description, the word monarchy doesn't seem to apply. The king is not a monarch. Overall it sounds like a representive democratic republic with very severe limitations.
-The counsel will have as many members are there are districts. Once we get a firmer grasp on the population size, we can better answer this.
-A noble class, delinated by birthright would be one way into the counsel. Otherwise, anyone could be elected, but there is some restriction that prevents common folk from doing so, either a large fee, a test biased towards nobility, etc. The second option allows particularly well off or dedicated people of lower classes to strive for the position, though at significant hardship and possibly risk.
-The King could have subtle powers, such as the ability to call speakers before the counsil, that allow him to sway the proceedings. In addition, the king may have responsibilities laid upon him (organizing tax collections and military) that translate into power indirectly.
-I don't like the idea of excluding females from the voting process, particularly because off the bat we've created so many female personalities that seem to be holding power. Perhaps if we did take that route, it could represent the last vestiges of tradition and be an in game issue, but I think we'll have enough politics. Citizenship would be one larger issue, as might status and race. Port Rislan probably sees a fair amount of immigration, so that instantly stands as a hot button issue.
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Mellon
Seasoned Warrior
Posts: 51
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Post by Mellon on May 31, 2006 15:09:01 GMT -5
I sort of expected you wouldn't approve of an elected King... Let's make it a hereditary title then. I agree with you on the King's powers. They should be like chairmanerial (is that even an existing word?) powers, like the power to summon meetings, the power to force the Council to vote on a certain matter etc. The other responsibilities you mentioned are good examples of what I ment by 'executive powers', though I must stress that these powers are delegated to him by law, and can be withdrawn by the legislator (the Sovereign Council, including the King himself I would say). Furthermore, the King should have many mainly ceremonial powers and privileges (the right to open the Cinder Downs' races  ) Looking at the setting's 'time period' (late middle ages / renaissance, I'd say) of our setting, it's reasonable to say there would be a lot of discrimination. So perhaps citizenship is only granted to certain races, excluding non-humanoids and monstrous humanoids for example. Also, adherence to the major religion in Port Rislan could be prerequisite to citizenship. I would rather decide how many council members we want, and align the number of voting districts to this outcome then the other way around, as the latter is more arbitrary. I would go for a pretty large Council (100+ members, possibly about 250). |
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on May 31, 2006 15:17:52 GMT -5
Wow, that's a big council for one city. how do they ever get anything done.
I was going to suggest twelve to twenty-four
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Post by Japic on May 31, 2006 17:24:19 GMT -5
Wow, that's a big council for one city. how do they ever get anything done. I was going to suggest twelve to twenty-four I suppose that begs another question... How many people actually live in this city? What is its population? If we're talking a city the size of rome in its glory days then 250 senate members is absolutely on par. Though if the city is only sporting 1,000 inhabitants, then that's most definately overkill. |
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on May 31, 2006 20:08:33 GMT -5
I'd like to think that it is going to be a fairly large city of a few hundred thousand people, but even still, such a large council seems a bit unweildy. Here in the US we have around that many in the senate and house of reps to handle a country of millions. Not that I'm comparing it to the US, I'm just saying is all.
I like the idea of a handful of members to represent each district of the city based upon the speciffic district's population.
I'm not sure how we can work out citizenship. It is a bit complicated to do something so strict and discriminating as Mellon has suggested, especially in a ort city. It could just be that the majority of the population is human, thus not many monstrous races would be comfortable enough to move in for one reason or another, most commonly, racism.
I see the overall alignment of the city being pretty neutral, thus I don't like the idea of putting religious constraints upon people in terms of citizenship. To be honest, I'm not too worried about how one becomes a citizen of Port Rislan. We can just say that whoever is born within the city and lives there, or whoever has lived there on a permanent basis and who takes up some form of permanent residence there in the form of rental or ownership of peoperty is automatically deemed a citizen or something to that effect. I'm not going to play out the goings on of the census bureau so it's not really an issue for me.
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Post by Lin on May 31, 2006 20:15:41 GMT -5
Well, first of all, I'm not worried about reflecting any historical precedent. Part of the reason I like D&D is that it isn't the real world.
100 counsilers as a bit much logistically, particularly if we want to detail the different districts which I would certainly like to. I'd shoot closer to 25.
For a population, anything between 100,000 and 200,000 would work for me. We're talking about a major metropolis here.
For citizenship, I think this makes for a quality tension point. One major metagame concern is what racism is in D&D. Are people more likely to be prejudice due to land of origin or species? Is an elf more likely to trust a domestic human or a foreign elf?
Citizenship could be a good topic to write a short blurb on, one that I am willing to tackle.
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Post by Lin on May 31, 2006 20:45:10 GMT -5
Citizenship
Port Rislan is the major population center on the island of Gremia. The city attracts a great deal of trade and is constantly seeing an influx of visitors. With all the new faces constantly streaming through, the government of Port Rislan has a strong motivation to keep track of who its citizens are and control the right of citizenship. Being a citizen affords certain rights, rights that are kept out of the hands of foreigners.
Qualifications for Being a Citizen of Port Rislan
+In order to be born a citizen of Port Rislan, one’s mother must be a citizen of Port Rislan or one’s mother must be in a recognized marriage to a citizen of Port Rislan.
+In order to earn citizenship to Port Rislan, one must be nominated for the position by the counselor of one of the districts. The counselor writes a case for the potential citizen, which is left the counselors to vote on. If the citizen receives more then 50% of all votes made and at least five votes, the person receives citizenship. Counselors are not required to vote and many have established standards for whom they will give an affirmative. These include mastery of the common tongue, holding a certain amount of wealth or being a member of the common races.
Benefits of Being a Citizen of Port Rislan
+Right to Trial: A citizen of Port Rislan receives a trial by jury. A Port Rislan jury is made up of one representative from each district. A guilty verdict is established if 2/3 of the members are convinced that the defendant most likely committed the crime. Those who are not citizens can be sentenced directly by a guard officer.
+Right to Use Public Works: Public works projects are only available for use by citizens. This includes baths, libraries and parks.
+Right to Own Land: Only a citizen can own property in Port Rislan.
+Right to Vote: A citizen has the right to elect the counselor of their district.
+Right to Audience: A citizen can request an audience with the counsel. In practice, the citizen will usually only speak to an assistant to their counselor, but they are granted the ability to make a formal request on record.
+Right to Burial: The graveyards of Port Rislan only house the bodies of citizens. All other bodies are laid to rest in the sea.
+Inheritance: The property of a citizen of Port Rislan are passed on through the family lines, a process guaranteed and supervised by the state in the case of murky lineage. Only a citizen can give or receive an inheritance. Those with no family with Port Rislan citizenship or those who die in Port Rislan who are not citizens donate their worldly possessions to the state.
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on May 31, 2006 22:18:23 GMT -5
Do you have to be a citizen in order to be employed or trade your wares in Port Rislan. I would imagine not.
Though I'm assuming that you'd have to be a citizen if you want to own your own business in the Port.
Maybe someone could work on the legal aspects of the city. I'm sure that foreigners must have some rights in terms of the laws. If someone who is not a citizen of Port Rislan is victimized in the city by some means, would they not have the right to seek justice.
This could get interesting when one of the PCs is taken to court and has to face a trial. [Insert evil smiley]
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Post by similar on Jun 1, 2006 4:29:15 GMT -5
Isn't one of the functions of a council to make it nigh impossible to get things done quickly?
Also are you really going to make it illegal for non-citizens to walk in the park?
I can see the signs now "Foreigners-Keep off the Grass"
Good work though guys this is all stuff I wouldn't even think about and certainly wouldn't find intersting enough to workout myself
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Post by VemuKhaham on Jun 1, 2006 11:47:26 GMT -5
these are the good bits Similar. I like the idea of park benches and other public buildings with notes on them stating: "Port Rislians only!" If we work these out we all know what we're up to when the need arises so they're pretty important as well. The legal system should get some attention if our aim is to build a city that features both consistency and verisimilitude. Anyways, I'm back (too late to formulate my own government it seems ) and here are my suggestions: The king shouldn't be hereditary. I like the idea of a select group having to vote for something, so you get intrigue, and since the mob voting for the council isn't selective enough for that, voting for the king should remain. Though it would be cool if there were some personal gain to be had for councilors to vote for a specific king, so the king must have at least some powers. Maybe military supreme command, or something. But even then, the king should conquer what he's being told to by the council... Anyway, I'm all for a more select group of councilors. Like Lin said, about 25, but I could see how an even smaller group could also work, given the fact that in that case each councilor's vote would be more influential and thus making the councilors as characters stick out more. We shouldn't be worried about the number of districts in this matter: we can make each district as large or small as we want, hardly having to take into account the population size. Population should be that of a big metropolis. Ancient Rome had over a million inhabitants at its height, though that may be a bit much. 100.000-200.000 seems a good proposal. I like the laws on citizenship. It's a good beginning, and while we're getting a hang of the cultural characteristics of the city (like what races are regarded as superior to others or such), we can add to these if needed. Foreigners should receive some protection from the law, or otherwise merchants coming to trade and bringing their wealth to the city would be robbed and killed on sight, which would be quite a bad thing for a portal city that thrives on trade. But those can be protected by general law: do not kill and such. Even foreigners would gain the benefit of that rule, and should they be victimized they can always report to an officer. I guess the state would than lead the process further. The only thing possession of citizenship seems to determine concerning judgment is how one is judged if committing a crime, not if someone victimized by crime receives protection. My main question now, as it has been mentioned a few times already, most likely because it could bring up some important matters concerning citizenship and government, again concerns religion (I hope I don't start coming across like some fanatic now ). This time, we should decide if the state and religion are entirely separate matters or not. Is there one religion supported by the law? Will people of other faiths be put down or otherwise held back? Maybe the king has religious functions as well. In this thread I made some of the basics of religion. This however, concerns the mainstream religion of Port Rislan, and while making it I assumed the city would be a human city. Any other races, as can be concluded by that basic religion background, would have other, older religions (Elves and dwarfs were mentioned for example). Should elves and dwarfs come to Port Rislan, some may convert, but I suspect that these proud races would continue holding on to their "more sophisticated and ancient" religions and pantheons. Is this accepted by the law? And, another matter, is this accepted by the common Rislanian (damn, we should make up the correct word for something/someone from Rislan*)? Also, there is the matter of those who do believe the bad god under the volcano should be worshiped and those who believe he is the devil. Which one of these does the law support, if the law has a favorite religion? *Something/one from Port Rislan of Gremia: I'm Rislian? I'm Rislanian? I'm Rislan? I'm Rislanese? |
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Post by similar on Jun 1, 2006 12:58:56 GMT -5
I'm a Risler?
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on Jun 1, 2006 13:30:43 GMT -5
Hahahahahaha
well anyway, I was thinking about what they might call themselves too.
Rislanian
and Gremian seem OK
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Mellon
Seasoned Warrior
Posts: 51
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Post by Mellon on Jun 1, 2006 14:23:02 GMT -5
I'm a Rislan? About the number of council members..: If there's a council that votes by majority, I don't really see how this would be an issue. It doesn't really matter whether 15 out of 20 members approve of a proposal, or 70 out of 90; the European Parliament has over 700 (!) members. And of course, speaking time could be limited in a large council. Perhaps the King (as chairman of the council) decides who may speak. Besides, as similar pointed out, why should we base the number of council members on effectiveness? Perhaps having a large number of members does make the council's decision making a bit unwieldy..., but this should only lead to interesting situations, I think. I also think a chosen King offers opportunity for political intrigue, more so then a hereditary one. If the council members would choose the King, this could lead to interesting situations: political deals, bribery, the creation of coalitions of council members, and of course: opportunities for guilds to influence this process. Also, I think this intrigue (especially the creation of coalitions) would be more interesting in a larger council. Yes, the King must have certain executive powers. Otherwise it wouldn't be more then a purely ceremonial function, and I don't think that's what we want. But, like Vemu says (hope I'm interpreting this correctly), the Kings powers are granted (i.e. delegated) to him by the Council, which therefore also has the right to revoke these powers. This is a very important issue, I think, as it touches the very mindset of the Rislanian(?). I don't think this question had a straight answer. It would be like asking: Does the average Mexican immigrant in the US feel more loyal towards his 'fellow Mexicans', living in Mexico or the US, or towards his fellow Americans? Of course, any answer to this question would be a generalization, but I'll answer the question anyway  . In general, I think the immigrant feels more connected to his ethnic group, but on some points he can feel pretty nationalistic about the US. Also, in cities, ethnic groups tend to stick together, causing segregation. I think something similar could be the case in Port Rislan: races tend to stick together, though when the city is at war (or something like that), they would all show they're very loyal to it and to each other. Also, I think the way these loyalties are divided differs per race. I would imagine that halflings feel less loyal towards their race then dwarves or elves do. |
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Post by similar on Jun 1, 2006 14:27:48 GMT -5
I think if I was from Port Rislan I would prefer to just say so then say I was rislanian. Do people really use 4 sylable identifiers based on their city name?
I would not for instance say I was a Nottinghamian I just say I'm from Notts.
If this is the capital and only city of relavence on isle you'd perhaps say you were a porter. Off isle yeah a Gremian
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Mellon
Seasoned Warrior
Posts: 51
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Post by Mellon on Jun 1, 2006 14:37:33 GMT -5
I don't think your comparison holds, similar. People tend to identify themselves with their country, nowadays. In our setting, this might not be the case. In the middle ages, for example, people would mainly identify themselves with their city or town, I'd say. But one way or the other, the Rislanian would identify himself with Port Rislan, as this is his city-state. Also, I would say I'm a Cuijkenaar. |
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Post by TheZebraShakes™ on Jun 1, 2006 14:45:57 GMT -5
Well, In a way I agree with Similar, but I'm thinking in terms of what other people might call them.
I live in a city called Yonkers. No one here identifies themselves in a strange way based on that name, they just say, "I'm from Yonkers."
But people from out of state will say, "So you're a New Yorker," or something like that, and then people from out of the country will say, "You're an American."
So it stands for identifiers like that. Foreigners will need something to go with. They'll probably be suited to say Gremian, and people from the island will just say, "Oh, so you're from the Capital," or "You're from the Port."
stuff like that.
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Post by VemuKhaham on Jun 1, 2006 15:24:52 GMT -5
Italy -> Italian has 4 syllables. Though that just doesn't seem to get the same effect when you say Rislanian. Maybe if we'd call our city Port Rislany or Port Risly. And of course you also have to make up the name for indications like: "that's the Risl... law" or "a Risl... lad." Gremian could be good, but that wouldn't be accurate in every situation. Rislanian law or a Rislan lad. I think I prefer Rislan as an adiective, like Germany/German. And in the common speech people would go with Similar's options, like I'm a Porter or I'm a Gremian or... I'm a Gremian Porter. or we could go with an entirely different word like Netherlands -> Dutch. But that would require a reason. |
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Post by similar on Jun 1, 2006 15:28:52 GMT -5
I agree they will identify themselves with their city but adding -ian just adds cumbersomeness that no actual person from the port would bother with. Rislanian may be technically correct but any guy from the street won't use it. Gremian, sure thats short enough that'll work.
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Post by Japic on Jun 1, 2006 22:50:10 GMT -5
Honestly people in different states across the US use a bunch of different things to identify themselves. Me in Colorado, call myself a Coloradan and if we're talking major cities, I'm a Denverite. I have a friend from Michigan and he says that they prefer Michiganders (as wierd as that is). So there's alot of ways to identify, as strange as any of them might sound.
As I recall Port Rislan is the most populace spot on this island. The Nation is called Gremia which counts for the big island and the smaller ones nearby. So as a Nation we're called Gremians. But the City itsself would be different; I guess we could settle on one or just make a new one up depending on who'se point of view it was. That's all that really matters anyhow; it a personal poitn of view. As we have all seen there's a point of view out there that would call us Americans, United Statesians. His view, his words, and people will react to them as they will.
I think the best way to do this is on a person by person basis. Go with what the Character feels is appropriate; I know I will.
Edit: oh yeah, so I'm on topic with the post, I think that you guys are doing well on the govt part; no suggestions from me.
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)
. In general, I think the immigrant feels more connected to his ethnic group, but on some points he can feel pretty nationalistic about the US. Also, in cities, ethnic groups tend to stick together, causing segregation.