Harvest: Postgame Thoughts

[Lin]

First off, in regards to Flash Jeck's comment, yes I did lose interest, but please read on, as there are reasons for these things.

I have absolutely no idea about with to do with this format. So many of the things that I use when DMing normally are just completely unusable in this format and the style of play doesn't seem to be prudent for this format either.

First, there is no feedback loop. When I run a session with people, I can see them. This is a huge difference. I know when people are getting bored, what they like, what characters they enjoy interacting with, etc. This helps set up pacing (see section). In this format, the only this I have to go by is the players post. However, it seems when they players are bored or disinterested, they post less often and shorter, which is bad, because I have even less feedback from an already diminished amount. I already can't see facial expressions, body language and gross movement (like, standing up to get a soda), so once the game started losing steam it only got worse.

Second, pacing. Pacing was vital to running this one shot last time. Sure, in text I can refer to the slow passage of time, but the effect is so much weaker than actually talking slower, going off on tangental details in the middle of something else and simply not having the story go anywhere for a while. Or the opposite, in a fast paced seen, is similiarly unfeasible. If I want to "slow down the action" it literally takes one post to do so, which is one day of time, which is too long. When I ran this one shot, I spent literally ten minutes of time where absolutely nothing happened, just describing corn, having the players interact and such. When I saw they were sufficiently bored and wondering why they were even playing (see above point), thats when they started hearing noices. The draw in power of that was amazing and it made the simpliest of the situation work. Of course, it eventually gets complicated, but thats a different issue.

Third, is banter. This is the problem I most anticipated and tried to account for. In my notes, about fifteen people in town are all detailed. They can be described and talked to. They each have there own seperate knowledge base and personality. But, the nature of conversation in this format makes interacting with them on any level other than Question > Exposition very consuming. Because of this, I had the Sheriff say a lot more stuff, but still any sense of the small town exploration, where everyone knows everyone elses bussiness is lost.

Those are generalizations, on to this particular game.

It started out fine, I suppose, with large expositions to force the game situation. Made sense. But I can really only give as much as I get. With so many one-two line posts, I felt that I couldn't do much of anything. I knew what the characters were doing, but had no clue how they were doing it or how they felt. Combine this the fact I had little insight to how the players felt and suddenly I was just running the scenerio straight from from notes. I don't like that feeling: I'm not the kind of person who runs modules.

The loss of interest was (it seemed to me) obviously bidirectional. As I saw I was getting very little back, I started to post shorter. As I started to post shorter, the players started to lose more interest. As I mentioned in another thread, I expect the players to give back a lot. My P&P group gives back 100% effort I put in. When we shift DMs as a player I work hard to give back as much as possible, adding NPCs where needed and sub-plots where there is downtime. As this was a one-shot, I don't expect them to contribute to world-building or anything like that, but still I do not feel that I my the entertainer and the players are the audiance.

Actually, I am having a similiar problem in WLD. Many times, I'm really not sure what to do as a player. I've noticed I'm saying less, but I'm sure something will come up soon that Deidre can really sink were teeth into, like earlier with the moral crisis.

But, Flash Jeck, when 50% of the group doesn't post for a number of days and up until that point there seemed (to me from my best resources) that interest had dwindled and no one was really enjoying it, it no longer seemed like a wise investment of my time. I'm sorry if you were enjoying it.

[IstarinCale]

I may explain the reason why some players didn't post and your loss of interest:
Some players may have not posted since the couldn't.. some other cause they didn't know what to do.. these were my reasons if I even didn't post on time.

I know why the interest was lost - your latest posts were kinda.. all the same. We see corn - we can go forward and right/left.
Instead of just describing the corn (like you did with your P&P mates) you should have just told us some details in one post.. we could get to the half dead kids in 2 posts tops and the interest would have been still in it but you dragged it too long.
Now that we get to the kids you still drag it too long - should have just say they attack us or just begging for food or something.. if you haven't noticed the last 2-3 posts we were just standing waiting for what will happend, and nothing did.

To sum it up, I had fun at first till you decided to slow things down too much. I'm sure the story is great - next time be quicker.

[K Man]

Sorry to hear about your game Lin. I read all of your points and consider them all valid arguements.

This format works for some, and it doesn't for others.

I too miss reactions. In BOYD, I wished I could have seen their faces when Mordrid took off, or in The Fallen, I wished I could have seen them react to the dying Arkannon and his pitiful existence. There is a feedback loop here, but it's very weak and is up to your interpretation of the player's post...which can sometimes be wrong.

I agree on pacing as well. It's hard to find a balance of what keeps your players posting, and what makes them feel railroaded or pushed too hard. I've posted a few times to have PCs go 'Hey, wait a minute! I want to do X.' And I've slowed my posts down only to have my players PM me with requests for action...it's a difficult balance that I still don't have the hang of.

I think I've actually done fairly well on banter. This format has helped me address everyone's questions and keep them all in line, but I do find myself doing as you mentioned - having NPC's spill inordinate amounts on information. It flows well, but in my PnP game, NPC's would never talk this much, unless they were trying to annoy the PCs or were crazy.

I do miss the tabletop and, as I've said before, I can find the benefits of playing in this format as well. It's a two-sided coin. I've been frustrated when players lose interest, or seem to, and I've lost interest - frustrating my players.

In the WLD, I'm honestly having second thoughts about seriously changing it around. You, Zebra, Raven, Similar and Fangor are all such great players, I feel like a slack-ass on my end when you come to a room, I crack open the big F'in book and see two lines of box text. (That's how it was for Rooms 70-73) Unfortunately, that's how much of the first section is...a dungeon crawl. There are a couple of NPCs, but they are few and far between. In the PnP game, the players just got into the intrigue sections of the dungeon but that's after 5+ gaming sessions of 4+ hours each...which in 'board time' equates to about 3 years...

Honestly, I have this fear of losing great players to a module delivered in an agonizingly slow fashion. I try to spice it up, but my descriptions just sound retarded.

Anyways, I'm now monologuing, so I'll just quit and know that you have my sympathies and understanding of your concerns... but a complete lack of knowledge to correct.

[Lin]

Flash: Thanks for the feedback, it always helps.

There is a very large micromangagement problem that I was having problems with in the confrontation with the kids. The nature of what they were (I know vague, I will post my scenerio notes maybe this weekend so you can read them) maybe it extremely important to know exactly how the players were reacting to them. And lets be fair: there were three posts involving them so far. First, you made visual contact, than you interacted, than they reacted. This is three days, so it seems slow, but again the more you put into your reaction, the more I can give back. The more mood you put in, the more I can play off of it. And, as such, the more novel information I can include that makes the game more interesting for you.

Basically, I have no idea how to negoiate the need for the rapid exposition of novel information and keeping the players as the active roleplayers. The more that is expostitted in one post, the more of a chance a player will have wanted to taken an action during that set of events, have had a reaction that could have effected the situation or even a characterization that could have made my response more personal.

Plus, pacing again. This is something I use extensively and I have no idea how to fabricate or replace the role it has in my games in this format.

I'm going to stick to being a player for now is all I'm saying.

[TheZebraShakes™]

Awww, he likes us. Too bad we're all going to die in a minute.

[VemuKhaham]

I understand all your points, even though I haven't been following the adventure. It's a pity, BUT...

As Kman said, there are good sides on this type of format as well. And maybe you'll think it's easy of me to say, but it works for me: exploit the good sides and don't bother too much of the bad sides.

Ok, maybe in this example, your original adventure was more designed to be PnP then online, but in that case it shouldn't be discouraging to try DM'ing something else. (I don't say you have too of course ).

With some effort, a campaign/adventure can be adapted, or a new adventure/campaign can be made specifically for online use. And if you try that, again; just exploit the goop parts. Cause there are plenty:

(Note; these points don't negate your problems, they could merely offset them with good parts of online format:)

- The slow pace has given me headaches in the past sometimes too, but I found that it also raised suspension very good. This, if exploited well by the dm (and maybe even players), could possibly give way to the use of cliff-hangers.

- The use of writing and posting gives you and the players the time to carefully weigh every word, think before things flip out of your mind per accident, description could be written with great care, and also, players can (I don't say they do, after hearing your point better describe the thoughts of their characters, as when in PnP, if a character would suddenly say: "my character feels somewhat angry, because..." that could be good, but it can also give away too much, and in PnP it might earlier cause meta-gaming, due to less time to consider your actions.

- Splitting up. The best example their is can be found in BOYD -> it literally opens up a world to explore. The players can more independantly choose their directions, pursue their own goals, or just for the sake of tactics, time-shortage or such things, a split-up can give tons of possibilities. You only need to exploit them, and have a DM willing to make various storylines.

- Again, worth of a point on it's own; online play-by-post counters inconsidered meta-gaming.

- Looking up rules, rolling dice, getting soda and making your way to the toilet don't cause slowdown of pace. Everyone can post when they feel like it, when they have greatest inspiration, if only they do it within the agreed period of time.

- Find your own things you like about online playing and exploit them.

Don't know if it helps. I just thought it wouldn't be good to give up online dm'ing after one error. Anyway, that's just my advice; take it or leave it.

[IstarinCale]

Ok.. according to Vemu - The adventure should have been successful BUT it wasn't too successful... Again - about the pace slowdown, you slow it down too much.

About the descriptions: Maybe we could have more described our actions and thought but sometimes the character doesn't 'think' if you know what I mean. I tried to send you a massage on one of my posts when my character (AKA Kael) started cutting down the corn - and I quate - "With great frustration"... I don't know if in something like 10-15 minutes (or maybe it was less) a character would become frustrated from some corn.. BUT I WAS! 3 posts of "where will you go?" and every time we 'argued' cause everyone had a plan of himself and such it was very frustrating that instead of storyline we only argue about the road we should take - so I thought of the cutting ;D.

I don't wanna change the subject but I have to ask this:
What is "Meta-gaming"?!? I thought a meta-gamer is someone who played something alike with the same DM and tell the others what would happend even though his character isn't suppose to know..
So can you tell me EXACLY what is "Meta-gaming"? (with all the espects..)

[Wizard]

Metagaming is letting your character make decisions based on the assumption that he is in a game.

Letting your character know everything you know is one example of metagaming. There's a lot that I know that Elxethan doesn't know about ____, so it's hard to play him as clueless on something I know all about, have written a different version of, and talked about with the designers. OK, maybe I haven't talked with the designers. But Skip may have yelled at me about it once.

"I prepare to be surprised," when the DM rolls spot checks is the essence of metagaming. (Shout-out to Jevva!)

[VemuKhaham]

Ok.. according to Vemu - The adventure should have been successful BUT it wasn't too successful...

Not really. What I mend was; maybe this adventure Lin tried to bring online just wasn't ready to be played online. In that case, maybe there is the option to adapt it a little, but if that's not an option, then trying a different adventure more suited for online use could be a good alternative. In that case, you could try to think of the points I gave to exploit the advantage of online playing.

But as all in life; it is personal taste that matters most. Some might not like online games, others maybe even like it over PnP games. I like both, but in different ways.

[Toptomcat]

So what changes would you have made to the adventure to better adapt it to online play?

[VemuKhaham]

me? I don't know; I haven't followed it. But of course, it's only an option one could consider. But, if I read some of this discussion only, it seems like Flash Jack has brought up some points that could make it more suited for online-play. But I'll leave it at that, because I'm not in the position to say anything else, having not read the adventure itself.

[IstarinCale]

Vemu is right, I did give some points to concider.. but if you want ill sum them here:
1) Faster posting - Faster ploting (if you know what I mean)
2) Read number one.
3) Read number two.
4) Repeat everything you have just read.
5) More detailing.


But from the things we did in this adventure it was suppose to be a very good plot.. just too slow for me
Again, Lin, its a very good adventure! I realy enjoyed it! next time "be quick! time is mana!"

[TheZebraShakes™]

I think it was everyone who contributed to the failure. Not just Lin. He can't do everything for you guys. Obviously in the beginning you went the wrong way when you didn't follow the tracks. So obviously it was going to go slow, kinda like in WLD where we keep going into these rooms that don't go anywhere except into the same four other rooms we've been in. So you guys could work on detailing your post a little more as well to help keep up the plot pace.
you can write something like, "If my character feels that this course seems to be leading him nowhere, he will turn around and follow the tracks, " or something to that effect.

Plus, another thing, is that two of the players weren't even posting, and they were the ones who were around near where all the action was going to be, so he couldn't really move on with the game until they posted, which they never did.

Also there were other instances where the unpredictability of player actions seemed to throw Lin off, the not following the tracks thing for instance, and the part where the gnome attempted to stab whatever was in the hole, rather then using his inate ability to try to communicate with it.
Just stuff like that. I guess it wasn't really ready to be taken online as a quickie adventure, seeing as how it's a maze and all.

it would be nice if the players tried to be a little more detailed in their actions. It even pisses me off as a player when all I see from my fellow players is a one sentence post consisting of three words. I mean, it's alright if that's all you can come up with for that particular situation, but if that's all you write over and over, it really gets difficult to work with.
If you're going to be a lazy player, don't get mad when you're storyteller is forced to be just as lazy.

[Fangor the Fierce]

Well, I might as well post, since I was in the game. I actually liked the adventure. Sure the posts became shorter, on a lot of accounts, but I was just getting into it when things stopped suddenly.

I tried posting actions and reactions to most things, but with the lack of detail in peoples actions or reactions to things, it really gets annoying. LIke for example, when two of us ran into the ghosts, that was cool. The other memeber was off in a whole different location and when they read what happened, they 'suddenly' appeared where the real 'meat' of the adventure was taking place.

I tried keeping up with the posts, and even posted as much as I could on a daily basis. But it appears that players wanted a battle or something, which if I remember correctly, the disclaimer to the adventure had been given in the intro. It was supposed to be an investigative adventure, with very little combat. But with the gnome attacking animals, and the Paladin attacking the corn, it appeared to me that they wanted action....I for one was all for the investigation.

To put it in prospective - I liked the adventure, even though at times it may have seemed otherwise. I like interacting with the townspeople and the ghosts, instead of fighting, so for that, I applaud Lin. As for the adventure, if you ever start it up again, let me know. Still interested in knowing where it heads....

[Lin]

Fangor does bring up the issue of match. I tried to write in my disclaimer a fair description of the game so that anyone who was interested in it would have a decent idea of what they are getting into. A normal campaign is kind of a balancing act where players and DM bend there styles until they reach that certain point where everyone is relatively happy with the style of the game. A one shot, however, by its very nature has its own style that is only flexible up to a point. No doubt this was a factor as well.

But, just one in a list. Had all the players matched well with the style, the pacing probably would have went better. If the scenes were more portable to this format, the other players might have gotten more into it posted with more detail. These things are almost always bi-directional.

[TheZebraShakes™]

I remember that game when we played it. The half orc character spent more time trying to koll my character then actually investigating. And if he wasn't trying to kill my character, he was trying to make him "do that thing where you make the corn taste like beer again."
Damn playa hatin' half orcs