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Post by Althael on Feb 19, 2005 20:26:08 GMT -5
I'm not a hive mind of rules like some, nor do I am 'ancient' with D&D, but with the time I spend creating stuff and watching the thread on WotC's board, I still have some knowledge.
The only race I've played with a LA his the draegloth in the Hammer. But with everything's I've read, I thought about something. Especially with the game I'm going to run.
A class level equal 1CR, but really only, a monstruous level doesn't. And, that's where I have a problem. Okey, the monster, often, can do more than the human or elf, but is suposed to be of equal power with him.
IMO, the only things that makes races with class level more powerful with their magical items, which increase in power as the owner increase in level. Evidently.
So, the LA, would be a 'malus' to the items that the monster should get, for it's suposed level or HD.
The Cr is what 'rate' you in combat. When you have a higher lvl than your Cr, seems to me that you've been fucked. It make you suddently underpowered.
Adventurers normally begin their quest at maturity for their races.
That said, they begin without knowledge nor practice.
But the monsters, when they reach maturity, are considered 'high level', already boosted with magic items and etc.
The monster already have HD, BaB, etc. gained by his races, not class. Sure, sometimes they are WAY older than common races, but they aren't mean to be as weak as human and the others.
So, why does the monster need much more Xp to learn the same things as an human do? Especially when the monster have an Int much higher.
Seems stupid to me that a monster considered, say ECL 5 need 5 times the Xp to earn his first class level than the human or half-orc next to him.
I've heard that in 3.0, when you changed your class, you only needed the Xp to gain a level in the other class as if your character level were the one in the new class.
Finnaly, my question:
Would it break the balance if, a player start his monster character as the CR as base lvl without his equipment, and start gaining level as if he were level 1?
Say the succubus.
Cr 7 as it is, nothing more.
1000xp later - lvl8, Cr 8
2000xp later - lvl9, Cr 9
etc......
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Post by Lin on Feb 20, 2005 10:39:37 GMT -5
You have to keep in mind the massive ability score bonuses monsters give too.
Monster's levels shouldn't be equal to there CR. Compare an Ogre to Human Barbarian 3. Give them the same point buy. Only give the ogre level 1 gold, but give the human barbarian level 3 gold. Let's see what we get:
(For this example, we will use the elite array distrubuted like this 15, 12, 14, 12, 10, 8)
Ogre
HP (Using average + Max at level 1): 37
AC: 18
Saves: 8/1/1
Attack: +10 Greatsword (3d6 +10) avg 20.5
Skills per Level: 3
Feats: Weapon Focus, Power Attack
Movement: 30
Initiative: +0
Grapple: +14
Misc Bonuses: Reach, Large Size, Darkvision, Low Light Vision, Immune to "Person" spells
Equipment: Scale Mail, Greatsword
Human Barbarian 3
HP (Using average + Max at level 1): 31 [37 during rage]
AC: 18 [16 During Rage]
Saves: 5/2/1 [7/2/3 during rage]
Attack: +7 Masterwork Greatsword (2d6 +6) avg 13 [+9 Masterwork Greatsword (2d6 +9) avg 16]
Skills per Level: 5
Feats: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, One Feat of choice
Movement: 30
Initiative: +1
Grapple +5
Misc Bonuses: Higher Charisma, Higher Ranged to Hit (+2), Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1, Rage 1/day (Noted Above)
Equipment: Masterwork Breastplate, Masterwork Greatsword, Ring of Protection +1
While the human would have a few small advantages, the ogre has a blatantly much better combat ability, which will only get better, faster because he wil require less Xp the advance (as a barbarian, so he will quickly remove more of the advantages the human has by getting them). Large size just gives so much (+4 Grapple, Trip, Disarm, Sunder, Bull Rush, Reach) and +10 strength. You just have to have identical fighters, one with 6 strength vs. one with 16 to know how much that is worth.
There are other monsters where you can find this as well. Nymphs are much more powerful than any level 7 character straight out of the MM, nevermind elite array stats and better choice of feats, such as Ability Focus [Stunning Gaze], Spell Focus [Conjuration], Augment Summoning. Light Armor Profincy is also pretty good too.
The whole idea that a character's CR is equal to its level is dubious, I completely agree with that notion. Basically, its saying the it'd be a far challenge for me and three of my friends to go beat up one guy in the street, assuming we're all about equally strong. Meanwhile, things like dragons are certainly much better for there CR. Adult Red Dragon certainly better than a level 15 character.
Monster levels aren't worth as much as class levels, but ability bonuses and spell abilities are often worth a lot. But than again, so is equipment. Its a tough act to try to balance these things. So tough, no one can do it perfectly. Certainly the LA/CR/ECL system has some gaping holes and questions (Read: Why are Bugbears so terrible?). But, I think tinkering and revising that system to suit your campaigns needs is probably a better idea than throwing it out. Core races can't keep up with monster races. Even if you want to lower the ECLs of monsters (something I can fully endorse), I certainly wouldn't change the XP tables.
Or, you could throw balance out the window completely. That's what I did in one campaign and it works better than one might think.
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Post by Wizard on Feb 20, 2005 11:36:49 GMT -5
....Well, at least be consistent. Why do intelligent monsters pay an effective xp penalty compared to humans of the same level (not CR)? You might as well ask why humans have to pay more xp as they advance in level. Monsters have to learn to use their abilities---so do humans. The argument might be made that this "monster learning" and whatever class levels they have don't build on each other, but
a)they do build: saves, BAB, skills, hp, and ability score increases from leveling all stack with each other.
b)the same argument can be made for multiclassing humans.
Anyway, I'll be glad to take your lvl 1 human fighter (heck, give him DOUBLE equipment) with my moniless great wyrm red dragon.
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Post by Althael on Feb 20, 2005 14:51:42 GMT -5
There is a different things by learning and having innate ability.
A monster would need to learn how to 'grow up' ?
I don't really think so..
A mind flayer would learn his mind blast as a human would learn how to walk or move his arms. It is something innate.
How the dragon just hatched from his egg 'learned the stuff that his 4-8HD gives him ? He was praticing in his egg?
The HD gaved to the monster are cause they are mean to be stronger than the core races. It would like to give X hp bonus to a certain monster cause it can resist much stuff, but it doesn't really fit the system, well.. kinda. It would make something like with construct.
Human needs to learn class level to be as strong as monster cause to human is genetically way weaker than most of the other races.
They don't build it, they simply have it. You have to build it with class level, but growing up isn't something you learn.
I'm missing something here..
If it's about the multiclassing xp penalty/favorite class or the like.
I don't use this rules.
The human would be at least lvl 26. Considering that the dragon are too powerful for their CR, he would be higher lvl. With epic feats, and his highly powerful magical equipment.
Lin,
Yes the ogre seems more powerful, but still.. by the rules, they are both CR 3. So, of more or less equal powers.
But in this case, the human would have the advantage of having a higher Int, so his strategy may make him of equal powers.
Monster levels aren't worth as much as class levels, but ability bonuses and spell abilities are often worth a lot. But than again, so is equipment.
IMO, equipment and racial abilities penalise each others and now we have the monster level that aren't worth the class level.
So making the monster class as character lvl, the pc gain both the racial bonus and the equipment, and that's why they are so powerful in the end.
That's what I think too. Monster races are mean to be stronger.
But the XP, I have a problem with that, it should be the training you need to learn something. So why would it need more training to learn something when you are simply older than an other race's standart ?
The racial HD shoudn't be consired level for the purpose of gaining class level.
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Post by Lin on Feb 20, 2005 16:29:00 GMT -5
Training and XP have nothing to do with each other. Each experience point is not equivilent to a number of minutes of training. Its just an arbitrary number based on your ECL and the CR of what you just killed. It doesn't matter how you killed, why you killed or if you didn't do anything and your party killed. Its just a game mechanic. Plus, since you always get ~1/13 a level experience from killing an even CR creature, no one actually levels slower as long as they are taking on appropriate challenges. A level 1 and level 20 character levels at the exact same pace.
Oh, on CR, the ogre is blatantly better than the barbarian in combat ability. Its not close. He doesn't "look" better, he is better.
For a PC race with class levels, ECL=CR, sure. But CR has no game function past the xp you earn for killing it. None. It doesn't take into account social connections, party matchups (4 wizards vs. Iron Golem in a sealed room) or anything else. CR is NOT a good means of determining how powerful a creature is at all. It shouldn't be used to do so. A level 20 human commoner is CR 19. Somehow I doubt he will be more difficult for a party to kill than just about any monster above CR 9.
I wouldn't use CR ever as a power judgement tool. While an Ogre might not be equal to a level 6 character (4 HD + 2 LA), it certainly is at least level 5.
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Post by Althael on Feb 20, 2005 17:16:52 GMT -5
I've always heard that NPC class' CR were 1/2 of their lvl.
But still, I can't find were it says in the DMG were it is said..
But that said, he would be near of your CR 9 creature.
So.. we couldn't learn new stuff if we won't kill things ?
We couldn't specialise in something by training or the like ?
The kill to advance seems silly to me.
I think you just said how things don't work well.
A 14lvl human would be CR 14. Okey.
The said succubus with 2 class lvl would be CR 9 as a monster.
But as a player it would be CR 14.
Okey, the one as a player have lots more stuff to play with. But when they have the same abilities and all, there's a problem.
The monster are made underpowered compared to the class.
And yes, CR do shows how hard a monster is to kill.
The stronger it is, the higher CR it'll have. If not, there would be no CR and everythings would gives XP depending on how he encounter happened, so, a great wyrm red dragon could had gaved 10xp cause it were too easy to kill by the player.
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Post by Lin on Feb 20, 2005 22:10:16 GMT -5
You can give XP for anything you want.
But, I think you are having two small problems.
First, don't think of XP as a "thing." XP does not represent training or improvement. XP is an arbitrary number used to determine your level (which in term, along with LA determines your relative power). Within the game rules, it is only given by CR versus ECL. Anything else is Ad Hoc, which is fine and dandy, but not really part of the system.
XP doesn't represent advancement because levels don't truly represent improvement. A blacksmith (Human commoner) can never get more than 4 ranks in Craft(Ironworking) unless he gains level. Gaining levels means that he gains more HP, more BAB, etc. If all he does is hammer iron, why get more BAB?
Meanwhile, a solider (Human Fighter) who constantly fights monsters and gains lots of levels can, as a result of this fact, get up to 23 ranks (at level 20) of Craft(Ironworking) as he, on his off time, makes horseshoes occassionally. Nevermind the fact that the blacksmith only works iron everyday, it doesn't matter.
XP and levels do not represent training or experience at all. They are a game mechanic for advancing characters and determining relative power. Thats it.
CR has nothing to do with EL. The only time they are even somewhat related is in the case of PC class levels. In this one (and only) case, EL=CR. This doesn't mean that an Ogre and level 3 human barbarian are equally difficult challenges. It just means that they give the same xp. The CR system is not intended to measure power level in any way. That is the job of EL. Player characters don't have a CR value. If you give a monster or NPC PC equipment, you need to determine the CR yourself.
I'll tell you a secret. In all the campaigns I run, I've thrown out CR. The values are so arbitrary, that they are practically useless. I award XP to players whenever they want it. We decide how much XP we think stuff was worth and give plenty of Ad Hoc bonuses. Challenges are better determined by experience, not CR. I mean, by the book 4 level 1 Elven Bards is a CR 5 encounter. So is 2 Ogres. So is 8 Orc Warriors. So is a Troll. So is a level 7 Goblin Commoner.
And some are much more real challenges than other. CR should be taken with a big grain of salt.
Use EL for PCs. While sometimes LAs need to be changed, the idea is sound. Perhaps it makes no sense, but if you abandon the idea that xp has something to do with training and just treat it as an advancement mechanic, than it works.
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Post by Wizard on Feb 20, 2005 22:38:32 GMT -5
Korone, if CR is a measure of power level and you handled advancement independent of racial HD and LA, why would you ever play a PC race? And Lin, I can definitely see where you're coming from (I tried to min/max a lvl 20 commoner once...it's just not possible.  ) with the CR system, it's still perfectly possible to use it and be fine, as long as you don't stretch the system. It really doesn't bear up that well under that sort of tension, and the DMG admits that somewhere. Though if your group can decide on xp like that, well, more power to you. |
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Post by Toptomcat on Feb 21, 2005 0:25:06 GMT -5
It wouldn't break game balance if and only if all the players were treated the same way- and even then, the Challenge Rating system would go straight to Hell and you'd have to judge all encounters by instinct alone.
It's doable, but you have to have a really solid feel for encounter challenges before you attempt it.
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Post by Althael on Feb 21, 2005 10:17:35 GMT -5
Ok ok...
So, by reworking the complete XP chart, it coult be okey?
Exactly what's going to happen. They're all begin at the same CR and gain level at the same rymth.
But for the XP, the thins I have in mind for now.. would be to treat a CR 7-8 creature as a CR 1 creature for the gain of XP.
Or the like..
But still, it depend on how much difficulty the pcs had to defeat the creature. Could vary..
A core race you mean ?
If you're not only playing this game for accumulating number on paper sheet, if you don't want to play a monster race and if you're simply able to play a monster race.
I'm planning to add a couple of monster with the Pc (there's only 2 of them left). They are going to be the same CR as the player.
The only 'problem' I do see right now, is that one of the player is a blue dragon half-fang. And since the dragons are too strong for their CR .....
How to make him CR 7-8?
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Post by Althael on Feb 21, 2005 13:21:32 GMT -5
Ehh.. thinking about it. It would be a waste of time to change the XP value for their CR if Lin's right.. No reason to give the XP of a CR 1 creature to a CR 7-8 one...
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) with the CR system, it's still perfectly possible to use it and be fine, as long as you don't stretch the system. It really doesn't bear up that well under that sort of tension, and the DMG admits that somewhere. Though if your group can decide on xp like that, well, more power to you.