Character Points- An alternate wealth system

[TheZebraShakes™]

Rojito
Wolf
Deekin
TheUdjat
TopTomCat

This thread is meant for the players above who are working together to create a game. Though others are certainly encouraged to comment, critique, and question

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Character Points
An Alternate D&D Wealth System.


The reasons for implementing the Character Points System are sevenfold

-To separate wealth from character power so that characters can spend their money in a heroic fashion.
-To place the character’s mechanical capabilities in the player’s hands.
-To eliminate the DM’s need to provide proper amounts of treasure
-To eliminate the necessity of item shops and downtime for buying, selling, and crafting items
-To give the players an opportunity to describe how their characters are powerful rather than simply chalking it up to the gear
-To ensure that levels are consistent with wealth by making sure that characters have appropriate gear for their level
-To have a concrete way of measuring the power of disposable items


How it Works

Characters have a certain number of character points which they accrue as they level, based on the table below:

Level	Character Points Gained (Cumulative Character Points)r
1st	0 (0)
2nd	500 (500)
3rd	1,000 (1,500)
4th	2,500 (4,000)
5th	3,000 (7,000)
6th	3,500 (10,500)
7th	4,500 (15,000)
8th	7,000 (22,000)
9th	8,000 (30,000)
10th	10,000 (40,000)
11th	12,000 (52,000)
12th	14,000 (66,000)
13th	22,000 (88,000)
14th	32,000 (120,000)
15th	40,000 (160,000)
16th	50,000 (210,000)
17th	65,000 (275,000)
18th	75,000 (350,000)
19th	120,000 (470,000)
20th	150,000 (620,000)

What you use character points to buy

-All permanent magical items
-All non-magical items that are made of special materials
-Per adventure uses of disposable/limited use items. This includes alchemical items, potions, wands, staves, and scrolls.
-Limited use items which have a permanent effect (eg. Manual of Bodily Health)

Special

- If you have the appropriate item creation feat, items of that type can be purchased at a 20% discount. This is not retroactive. The prerequisite for item creation feats is a number of ranks in the appropriate craft skill equal to the caster level normally required +3 (eg. Craft armorsmithing for Craft Magic Arms and Armor, P)

- If you already possess a magical weapon, any additional weapons you buy with character points cost 50% of their usual cost as long as their enhancement bonus is less then that of their primary weapon.


What you don’t use character points for

-Basic gear. Characters are assumed to have as much common adventuring gear as they want and can carry. This includes weapons, armor, ropes, torches, and so on.
A character is assumed to have one masterworked item per character level and no more (eg. lvl 3 character w/ MW rapier, MW studded leather, MW thieves' tools)

-Special circumstances. Once per adventure, a character can attempt a skill check to have remembered to bring a certain limited use or mundane item. The item must be worth 1/20 or less than his total character points. The character rolls the appropriate knowledge, craft, or profession skill against a DC 20 to see if they have the item. The item can be used until the end of the adventure.

-Mounts and hirelings. These are specific to the scenario and will be available based on the adventure. Characters with Diplomacy may use this skill to acquire superior hirelings, and characters with Handle Animal may use the skill to gain superior mounts. Hirelings and mounts usually last until the end of the adventure.


How Disposable Items Work

One use items
You may pay triple the cost of a one use item to purchase it for your character. The character may use the item once per adventure. At the start of each adventure, the item is replaced. A character may purchase a one use item more than once to have multiple copies of a particular item or a variety of different items.

Charged items
These are purchased at the usual cost. A charged item starts each adventure with 15 charges. These charges may be used throughout the course of the adventure, but are not retained upo for the next adventure if unused. A character may purchase more than one charged item to gain additional uses of a single item or to have a variety of charges from different items.

Misc. limited use items
The cost of these items will be determined on a case by case basis. The default is triple the price for a full compliment of uses each adventure.


Trades, Swaps, and Boosts

Once at each level up, a character may trade one of his character point selections to reimburse its full cost in character points. These points may be used toward other selections.

A character may raise the bonus on an existing item by paying the difference between the old cost and new cost.

If the character wishes to change an ability on an item, he must use his one trade in per level to exchange the item for a new one (eg. trade +2 Flaming longsword for +1 Holy greatsword)


Clarifications

If a character loses a permanent magical item during an adventure, they are assumed to have found or made a new one by the time the next adventure starts.

Permanent abilities granted by character points are not magical. They cannot be dispelled. They do not require body slots. They do not require the existence of a physical item as representation, with the exception of weapons, armor, and shields. Because of this, Anti-Magic Field and similar magic effects are not used.

Limited use magical items are magical and their effects can be dispelled if they have a duration as usual

Players are encouraged to think of descriptions as to how their character traits manifest themselves.


Other people’s stuff

Any magical items you find on someone else are useable until the end of the adventure, at which point they become mundane non masterworked weapons.

[Rojito]

"Permanent abilities granted by character points are not magical. They cannot be dispelled. They do not require body slots. They do not require the existence of a physical item as representation, with the exception of weapons, armor, and shields. Because of this, Anti-Magic Field and similar magic effects are not used. "

So uhh... what are these permenant abilities? like boosts to our ability scores? what? extra feats? kinda confsed here

[TheZebraShakes™]

Permanent abilities are the constant effects granted by magical items as long as they are being worn. These are most commonly the magic items which offer bonuses in one form or another, such as
arms and armor with enhancement bonuses
cloak of charisma and similar ability boosting items
cloak of resistance
Ring of protection, energy resistance, and so on

So you still purchase magical items as normal, but rather than wearing all sort of different gear and worrying about where to put it, the enhancements are simply becoming inherrent to the character and may manifest themselves physically in whatever way the player wishes, if any.

To use TTC's example in the other thread, the character doesn't have to wear huge gauntlets of ogre power, he would just pay the cost of the gauntlets and perhaps mention to the other players that the character looks as if he's een working out extra hard as of late and that is how the new strength may be represented.

Does that help?

[Rojito]

ok ok ok so could you get them to stack, so i could get maybe... +12 to charisma?

[TheZebraShakes™]

No, the basic functions and limitations of the items still work the same as normal.

Here we are only trying to work with a new wealth system, not the magic item system which by all regards will remain the same.

A charisma boosting item will still only grant a +6 at max capacity.

[roguewolf]

in this way can you, put on multiple cloak or a dozen of rings? if they are different? i don't quite understand this myself

[TheZebraShakes™]

Yes, as stated, there are no body slot limitations and the items are not represented as physical entities.

[Toptomcat]

What about abilities that would seem obviously incongruous for a character to 'develop' on their own- such as Wings of Flying?

[Rojito]

umm alrighty then... so can we uhh... share our character points?

[TheUdjat]

This is very interesting and innovative, and my primary question mirrors TTC's. Things like Wings of Flying would seem particularly out of place. However, I think this handles things generally in a much easier and, well, more interesting fashion.

I especially like what's been done with limited-use and one-use items. It really make them more viable.

My only other curiosity is Character Points to Wealth. Is it equal? 4,000 CP = 4,000 GP for the purposes of gaining a +2 bonus to a stat (the price of Gauntlets of Ogre Power)? I noticed that the CP table and the Wealth table are not identical. Is this because CP are more valuable (which is my general impression - buying a wand is a lot cooler now than previously, and non-dispellable stat bonuses are nice)?

Another question I thought of: You mention being able to increase a weapon/armor bonus by paying the difference (nothing unusual there). Could we do the same with, say, a Wand? Increase a Cure Light Wounds to a Cure Moderate Wounds for the difference in price? Raise a one-use item from a Shield of Faith +2 to a Shield of Faith +4 for the difference? Seems like that should be feasible, but it's worth checking.

[TheZebraShakes™]

What about abilities that would seem obviously incongruous for a character to 'develop' on their own- such as Wings of Flying?

It shouldn't really be an issue. You just select the wings of Flying as the item, the flight can manifest itself however you choose, Superheroes fly all the time and they don't have wings. Wizards can fly without wings. You can describe your character's new ability to fly however you'd like.

Same with, say, a ring of Invisibility.

so can we uhh... share our character points?

Why would you want to. That would defeat the purpose of having each character's wealth in gear correspond with his level and the challenges he should be facing. Sure, you can buy things that others can benefit from, like wands, potions, and the like, but in this way, there is no need and no practical means to share character points.

Udjat,

Yes, character points are equal to Gold Pieces in that manner. 4,000 character points can buy you the gauntlets of ogre power.

And yes, you've basically hit the nail on the head with why at each level you get less character points then you would get in GP. There are a lot more advantages to having character points and to award the same number of them as GP per level would again defeat the purpose of maintaining a proper balance of wealth per level.

To upgrade a limited use item, you would use your one trade in per level. For example, trading in your wand of CLW for its full cost and then putting those character points toward the new wand. One trade in per level is meant to prevent one from just taking advantage of the CP system by swapping in everything for its original worth and buying a whole slew of newer and better things. Normally, once you use up a potion, it's gone and so are the GP spent. But here you get the chance to have that potion once per adventure throughout your entire career with just one low cost, which is already agood thing in and of itself.

[TheUdjat]

thezebrashakes said:

Normally, once you use up a potion, it's gone and so are the GP spent. But here you get the chance to have that potion once per adventure throughout your entire career with just one low cost, which is already agood thing in and of itself.

Which is, to me, the single greatest thing about this system. Suddenly, potions, wands, scrolls, and otherwise are a definite option. I love it.

One more clarification - You point out that an item's abilities needn't manifest in the item's form (as with the boots/ring example above). How about one-use items? Would it be acceptable to change the in-game flavor of an item so that it manifests as an ability, rather than an item? For example, say I purchase a Potion of Bull's Strength with my CP. Instead of having my character down a potion (or break a tile), could it instead be some inherent power that he activates in times of need?

The only trouble I foresee with this is that it means the character can't be 'disarmed' of a given one-use/limited-use item. On the other hand, they also can't share that item with anyone else in the party, which could be a balancing factor. What do you think? I'm interested in changing/expanding the flavor and representation of one-use and limited-use items, tying them more closely to the character. Just want to see if that's alright.

EDIT: I lied, one other question. Masterwork items. This seems more useful to fighter or combat-based characters than, say, a caster. What do I do if I no longer have a need for MW Items? Can I get something else instead, or are they simply lost? A MW weapon is at least 300 gp, while armor is 150, but if a character has no use for those, what's left? Perhaps magic items worth up to 150 (potions, feather tokens, elixirs)? I'm thinking of doing a Sorcerer, and beyond a MW weapon or two, I can't see much use for it.

[K Man]

On the general whole, I like this concept.

It does remove a lot of book-keeping on both ends of the table. Although I feel sorry for all the out of work 'Scribes' at the gametable, I can't help but enjoy the fact that as a DM, everything you find becomes mundane at the end of the adventure. No need for me to worry about wealth, treasure, giving away something that's too powerful etc. That's too cool.

But those troubles which it removes, it inadvertently also creates in several unique circumstances.

Ring of Three Wishes - According to the description, I would classify this as a 'One Time Use' item since once used, the ring is dead. Theoretically, an 18th level anything can spend the 300,000CP to purchase this item and have it refresh at the beginning of every adventure. They can use this to break the wealth system by creating magic items each time, or enhancing ability scores every time they play. Four adventures could equal a +12 to one ablity. At 20th level, get two (because they are small) and give your self a +6 to one score everytime you play. A 20th level monk would get deadly right quick with this.

You could make a special ruling on this, but then that creates more paperwork.

Also, it doesn't seem fitting. Even a 20th level character could never afford the 633,000CP necessary for a re-charging staff of power when--in the current wealth system--a 20th level wizard could have a staff of power and so much more. Granted the new staff recharges, but still...having it be the only thing you own in lieu of everything else you could own?

Again, special ruling could be made, but more paperwork.

What about a Ring of Friend Shield? How would you split the cost of the item that needs a pair like this to function?

What about legacy items?

Also, how would cursed items found in an adventure work? I'd care a lot less about a Loadstone at 1st level stuck in the wilderness if it became a rock as soon as I was through the adventure.

Also, I see this creating a sort of new 'standard gear' that everyone will want for every adventure. Chunker is far better at this than me (when it comes to selecting standard useful gear everyone should have), but with this table I can already see exactly what any character of mine would want; mostly regenerating potions/oils and scrolls that last around 1 hr/lvl+.

At 1st level:

• Potion of Endure Elements (150CP)
  
• Potion of Mage Armor (150CP)
  
• (If arcane) Two first level spell scrolls (150CP)
  
• One more 50CP thing
  

As you increase in levels, continue to stock on regenerating, long term effects that boost your AC, HP, Stats and damage output...because, hey, you'll never run out. Just quaff when needed and survive the module--poof, they are back in your hands.

Anyways, I could come up with more items that will need special rulings, but I have games to run today. Granted, most of these rulings have to be made in or near the epic level realm--but there are those of us that like to play that high.

I would like to use this, but I see its feasibility and believability at higher levels slipping. It's a great way for lower level PCs to get the edge they need to stay alive.

Personally, I can't wait for my 20th level monk to stomp around with two rings of Three Wishes for 587,700CP and his assortment of badass potions (Resist Energy 30's, Magic Vestments +5, Fly, etc) using one wish to cast Anti-magic field and the others to beef me up in some fashion to stomp the 'F' out of my enemies. I dig it!

[K Man]

Also how would wealth in a town work? Would the 3X cost of an item go over the wealth limit of the town or would you factor the original cost of the item?

[TheUdjat]

I think I can answer some of these.

admin said:

Ring of Three Wishes - According to the description, I would classify this as a 'One Time Use' item since once used, the ring is dead. Theoretically, an 18th level anything can spend the 300,000CP to purchase this item and have it refresh at the beginning of every adventure. They can use this to break the wealth system by creating magic items each time, or enhancing ability scores every time they play. Four adventures could equal a +12 to one ablity. At 20th level, get two (because they are small) and give your self a +6 to one score everytime you play. A 20th level monk would get deadly right quick with this.

You could make a special ruling on this, but then that creates more paperwork.

I think this qualifies as one of the 'Misc. limited use items', to be handled on a case-by-case basis. So it inherently subscribes itself to a special ruling (which in my opinion would just be 'not allowed')

Also, it doesn't seem fitting. Even a 20th level character could never afford the 633,000CP necessary for a re-charging staff of power when--in the current wealth system--a 20th level wizard could have a staff of power and so much more. Granted the new staff recharges, but still...having it be the only thing you own in lieu of everything else you could own?

Again, special ruling could be made, but more paperwork.

On the contrary, 'charged' items (wands, staves) are still purchased at their original price. So just the standard 211,000, and you get 15 charges per adventure.

What about a Ring of Friend Shield? How would you split the cost of the item that needs a pair like this to function?

Good question. I guess two characters could pool, or if one truly wanted it, there you go.

What about legacy items?

Not touching this one. Damned legacy items and their complicated rules.

Also, how would cursed items found in an adventure work? I'd care a lot less about a Loadstone at 1st level stuck in the wilderness if it became a rock as soon as I was through the adventure.

According to the rules as written, it'd be cursed until the end of the adventure, at which point it's kaput. A cursed item for an adventure is still significant, imo.

Also, I see this creating a sort of new 'standard gear' that everyone will want for every adventure. Chunker is far better at this than me (when it comes to selecting standard useful gear everyone should have), but with this table I can already see exactly what any character of mine would want; mostly regenerating potions/oils and scrolls that last around 1 hr/lvl+.

At 1st level:

• Potion of Endure Elements (150CP)
  
• Potion of Mage Armor (150CP)
  
• (If arcane) Two first level spell scrolls (150CP)
  
• One more 50CP thing
  

As you increase in levels, continue to stock on regenerating, long term effects that boost your AC, HP, Stats and damage output...because, hey, you'll never run out. Just quaff when needed and survive the module--poof, they are back in your hands.

I thought about this, but I think you're underestimating the scope of an adventure. An adventure, especially on the boards, could be a long, long time. Magic items, additionally, are typically designed as 'minimum caster level', which means those great Mage Armor potions only last 1 hour. Period. Sure, you could buy 24 of them (for, what, 150 x 24 CP?), but what if the adventure lasts longer than 24 hours? This one-use rule is far more useful for things like scrolls of a spell you don't want to prepare every day, but that might be useful in a crunch (like Featherfall, Obscuring Mist, maybe Invisibility). Emergencies. And yes, it refreshes after each adventure, but that's not necessarily every day or every battle or even every year. An adventure is kind of a subjective period of time. I compare it to one of your 'titles' on the in-game posts (i.e. 'The First Piece' from BOYD could be called one adventure). I don't think even long-lasting magic items are as powerful as you give them credit for.

Except maybe Endure Elements. That is pretty handy.

It does ramp up the power a little, but I think it's more 'useful' than 'powerful'. There's nothing a one-use item can do that can't be counteracted with some judicious DMing.

Anyways, I could come up with more items that will need special rulings, but I have games to run today. Granted, most of these rulings have to be made in or near the epic level realm--but there are those of us that like to play that high.

I would like to use this, but I see its feasibility and believability at higher levels slipping. It's a great way for lower level PCs to get the edge they need to stay alive.

Personally, I can't wait for my 20th level monk to stomp around with two rings of Three Wishes for 587,700CP and his assortment of badass potions (Resist Energy 30's, Magic Vestments +5, Fly, etc) using one wish to cast Anti-magic field and the others to beef me up in some fashion to stomp the 'F' out of my enemies. I dig it!

I think this system is most abuseable by magic-users actually. The ability to prepare powerful spells while having scrolls on hand for crisis situations is exceptionally valuable. A Wizard doesn't have to spend slots on Knock or Featherfall or even Grease (and often over-looked spell). They can keep all those slots for the really effective Mage Armors and Shocking Grasps and the like. Stuff they can guarantee will need to be used each and every day. And if they get thrown off a cliff one day, they don't have to curse and say 'damn, if only I'd kept memorizing that useless Featherfall!'. It's just... nice. But even as I've been toying around with different equipment combinations (at least for lvl 4), I can't find a way to really, truly abuse the system.

...I'll leave that for TTC and Deekin. I kid, I kid.

[TheUdjat]

admin said:

Also how would wealth in a town work? Would the 3X cost of an item go over the wealth limit of the town or would you factor the original cost of the item?

You don't actually 'buy' the items, you just get them (or abilities equivalent to them) when you level. So short answer is, towns just don't have magic equipment.

At least that's how I understood it.

[K Man]

I quote you, you quote me, we're one big happy family...

theudjat said:

...

I think this qualifies as one of the 'Misc. limited use items', to be handled on a case-by-case basis. So it inherently subscribes itself to a special ruling (which in my opinion would just be 'not allowed')

From a DM standpoint, agreed--a simple ruling and this is fixed. But I was just trying to illustrate how quickly it could be broken without many more special rules. I haven't even opened the Magic Item Compendium yet, but I'm sure I could find more items like this...probably not as powerful, but certainly broken when infinitely recharging. I'd just hate to have a player put all the effort into thinking this loophole out only to have to come in and shut it down because I see it as broken. I would also hate to have arguments over interpretation. You see a Miscellaneous item, I see a one-time use item etc.

theudjat said:

On the contrary, 'charged' items (wands, staves) are still purchased at their original price. So just the standard 211,000, and you get 15 charges per adventure.

My bad on not reading that correctly. However, you've effectively taken away the downside of the staff's retributive strike (8 damage X # of charges burned= broken staff) and made it into a 120 point per adventure 'bomb' that recharges. And when the staff itself is broken after going off, trade it back in and get another one every level to do it again. It's not as powerful as the potential 50 charge model (if staves are charged like wands), but still nearly lethal none-the-less. Not to mention the potential for the staff do 400HP of damage in a retributive strike has been completely removed...should the staff even be that price anymore?

theudjat said:

According to the rules as written, it'd be cursed until the end of the adventure, at which point it's kaput. A cursed item for an adventure is still significant, imo.

Again, agreed. Cursed items should remain a bitch to deal with, especially when story-centric.

theudjat said:

I thought about this, but I think you're underestimating the scope of an adventure. An adventure, especially on the boards, could be a long, long time. Magic items, additionally, are typically designed as 'minimum caster level', which means those great Mage Armor potions only last 1 hour. Period. Sure, you could buy 24 of them (for, what, 150 x 24 CP?), but what if the adventure lasts longer than 24 hours? This one-use rule is far more useful for things like scrolls of a spell you don't want to prepare every day, but that might be useful in a crunch (like Featherfall, Obscuring Mist, maybe Invisibility). Emergencies. And yes, it refreshes after each adventure, but that's not necessarily every day or every battle or even every year. An adventure is kind of a subjective period of time. I compare it to one of your 'titles' on the in-game posts (i.e. 'The First Piece' from BOYD could be called one adventure). I don't think even long-lasting magic items are as powerful as you give them credit for.

I thought potions fell into the realm of not so much minimum caster level, but minimum craft level...I.E. - 3rd level. If not, then yeah, there's no sense in buying them. But if they are 3rd level, for a low-level person they are extremely handy to have.

And I'm well aware of adventure length. In the WLD, I am very cautious about handing out levels because of the home-ruled burn AP points to stay live rule--1/lvl get out of death free card. Adventures can take a very long time to complete, especially on the boards. Hell, that one adventure Shakes ran took like four months for 1 24 hour period...so not even a refresher for spells.

If I were to use this system as a DM, I would be much more wary of when level-ups came.

theudjat said:

It does ramp up the power a little, but I think it's more 'useful' than 'powerful'. There's nothing a one-use item can do that can't be counteracted with some judicious DMing.

I think this system is most abuseable by magic-users actually. The ability to prepare powerful spells while having scrolls on hand for crisis situations is exceptionally valuable. A Wizard doesn't have to spend slots on Knock or Featherfall or even Grease (and often over-looked spell). They can keep all those slots for the really effective Mage Armors and Shocking Grasps and the like. Stuff they can guarantee will need to be used each and every day. And if they get thrown off a cliff one day, they don't have to curse and say 'damn, if only I'd kept memorizing that useless Featherfall!'. It's just... nice. But even as I've been toying around with different equipment combinations (at least for lvl 4), I can't find a way to really, truly abuse the system.

...I'll leave that for TTC and Deekin. I kid, I kid.

Again, agreed. I was just trying to illustrate the point that although it saves on paperwork, it does create more DMing work. I would need to make immediate rulings, downright outlaw things, and just pay more attention to what my players are buying versus what I'm giving them. It's one trade off for the other.

I think everything in this damn role-playing world comes down to judicious gamemastering. It's always about that. Over the course of running these boards I've changed my DMing style--even at home--because of the new rules and combos I'm exposed to. I'm still learning, and sometimes at great expense. Each time someone breaks something I had written because of a rule or a combination (class, item, spell etc) I'm wary of it the next time.

I dunno, to not get off on a tangent, I'm not fighting this. If my players want it, they can get it. We would just have to agree on the understanding that it's a fluid concept and subject to constant change as people learn the loopholes.

[Rojito]

Abusable by magic users? Stacking Monks belt anyone?

[K Man]

rojito said:

Abusable by magic users? Stacking Monks belt anyone?

Still can't combine magic items. The general rules with stacking effects are;

If it gives the same bonus as something else, the highest bonus wins. (I.E. - +2 Deflection Bonus to Armor and a +4 Deflection bonus do not = +6, they equal +4.) However, +2 Natural, +2 Deflection, +2 shield and +2 Insight will all stack.

If it doubles a rating, you increase the multiplier by 1. For instance, a critical of X2 doubled is not X4, but rather X3. The same works for stacking Keen, Improved Critical etc. It moves up a step, not double-doubles.

So in this instance, stacking monk's belt would have no other effect other than making your pants immune to Gusts of Wind.

[Rojito]

ah ok, another misunderstanding on my part then