US Presidential Elections

[Japic]

Ok, I know that we don't usually talk politics here, but in light of our recent election I wanted to get the world opinion about all this.

Would someone from across the globe clue me in about what kind of press we're getting over there? I'm just curious to hear it from a different perspective.

If politics is a bad idea I'll gladly erase the post and pretend it never happened. Thanks guys and gals.

[TheZebraShakes™]

The post needn't be erased. I think that we're all mature enough to handle such a topic and to realize that our beliefs and opinions are just that, our own, and not the final say.

I'm curious as well, and it's not a matter of ego or nationalism or anything like that. . . just innocent curiosity as to whether the campaign trail and elections here have received any coverage there, especially with all of the craziness going on and the historic first with the US's youngest and blackest president elect

I'm just hoping that everything gets better and that nothing stupid happens.

[spiral]

There is enough coverage of it in the world media for those across the globe who are interested enough to follow it in great detail. I personally don't watch much news. I read a broadsheet once a week and catch the TV news maybe once a week too - and even with that little connection, I am aware you're voting right now.

I can speak for most of the people I spend time with here in the UK on a daily basis, and remember, this is just our opinion - your Mr Obama sounds like the most fair-minded, reasonable, intelligent, and capable of potential presidents. Many many people here in the UK are hoping you all vote for him in huge numbers. Very very few people can even today work out *who* in their right mind could have put Bush in.? Come on, who *did* that!?

How about our members from other areas of the world?

{All views expressed here are just opinion. I don't pretend to know the important and no doubt very relevant details - this is just my point of view as garnered from a twice a week news diet here in Cambridge, UK.}

[spiral]

..and I log onto BBC news this morning with my coffee and see he's won.. =)

[VemuKhaham]

As for here in the Netherlands, I've truly never seen a foreign election followed this closely ever - it's been a real hype. Even though American presidential elections have always triggered a lot of attention here, right now it's been taken to the next level. As for me personally, I have slept 3 hours tonight, cause there was an all-nighter gathering about the election that I attented. Since I'm write now having to attend colleges, you can pretty much guess my state of mind. But I guess I'm a little extreme still, cause I've been following it really closely.

Why? It's I think because the prevailing feeling here seems to be that the Dutch government has for the past years sort of been behaving like the loyal, unquestioning dogs that have been following Bush' foreign policy for far too long. The Prime Minister has given support both politically and militarily for the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan while most of the population has great doubts about it - a great many have even demanded an as of yet unrealized parliamentary enquiry into the matter. We pretty much feel like we're not being treated with respect by Bush. Whatever people in general now think about Bush, we've been thinking it here doubly so - the guy's been a disaster.

As for the longer term perspective, I'd guess (very much a guess) that about 90% or so of the Dutch would vote Democrat any day, and Obama has increased that even more. You should consider that the most rightwing parties here are more leftist than the democrats in the US. It's really entirely different (also concerning things like economics, healthcare, foreign policy, abortion, guns, homosexual emancipation, etc) so people are kind of hoping that America will finally have a more 'social' character now.

As for me, I'm a bit sceptical. I preferred Obama over McCain, but I'm a pretty leftwing guy, voting Socialist Party over here in the Netherlands, so I wouldn't even be able to feel represented at all if I were an American citizen, not even by Obama. But I was moved and impressed by McCain's speech when he admitted defeat, stressing the unity of the country, moreso than I thought much of Obama's victory speech, which was pretty simple.

On a final note: Especially the type of campaigning that goes on in America, involving family members, huge spending and personal attacks and the like, is usually thought of very badly here. On the other hand, many are impressed by the way almost the whole of America seems to have been politically active in one way or another, showing that people care about democracy (despite the fact that relative to here, the percentage of people actually making their vote is really low, even this election).

All in all it's positive: a black president with a totally different policy than Bush in every way is good news here, and it's certainly exciting.

Thank you very much, this was Vemu, live from Nijmegen, the Netherlands.

[Wicksy]

I too have been fascinated by the recent election. I am glad Barrack Obama has won....i think it shows a new side to America - one that is more positive and bright. 50 years ago a black man couldnt even drink in the same room as a white man.....now there is a black president! Marvelous IMHO

[TheUdjat]

Let me preface this post by saying that I live in Virginia, which was one of the more contentious states during this past election. But that said, I usually say I'm from DC because I'm inside the city's metropolitan area, and it's a lot easier than explaining the differences between northern and southern Virginia to people. In other words, I'm close to the capital in a very contentious state.

There's a lot I could say about the election, because there was an utterly impressive enthusiasm behind it--I think we had incredible voter turnout, though as Vemu noted, our turnout is never so hot--but given the sheer size of our population, that's just how it seems to go. (Though it's worth noting, Vemu, that there is a Socialist party in the US and a number of other parties aside from the big two (Democrats and Republicans), but they just generally don't have the support and numbers to accomplish anything substantive). In Virginia, at least, half of the registered voters on our role had already voted by 10 AM EST yesterday, just four hours after the polls were open. Fantastic stuff.

In the end, the vote turned out not to be all that close, once we got down to electors. Virginia could've voted Republican and it wouldn't have mattered, but we didn't know that going in. And ofr me personally, it's a very, very happy thing to see Virginia finally voting democratic, though I guess that kind of reveals my leanings in this election. My area is extremely liberal-heavy, and it's always been a pain watching Virginia continue to go conservative for... the past 44 years. Changing that rules.

And we finally have a black president (though I'll stress that he isn't the youngest president. He looks youthful, but Obama's 47, which puts him a good 4 or 5 years past Kennedy and Teddy Roosevelt). Literally a historic occasion. Race hasn't been as big an issue as I feared it would be, but it's still a pretty momentous occasion, and people around DC just went crazy. The capital has long been a black majority, and 95% of the voters went democratic in this election (no surprise). There was cheering in the street for hours after the results were announced. It was nuts. But really cool.

I'm still a little cynical about politics, like pretty much all Americans, but I do hope something new comes of all this. That was the whole point, after all.

Anyway, just wanted to give a very inside-the-country perspective. DC gets very political (for obvious reasons), so it's always interesting around here around this time. And thanks to all of you giving us outside-the-country perspectives; I've been wondering about all of that, too.

[menatkhufu]

Obama has previously expressed that he favored the following, which means -assuming he is honest- he is a man of conscience, and the right choice for the super-power.

- stop investing in "unproven" missile defense systems
- not "weaponize" space
- "slow development of Future Combat Systems"
- work towards eliminating all nuclear weapons
- ending development of new nuclear weapons
- reducing the current U.S. nuclear stockpile
- "phased redeployment of U.S. troops from Iraq"
- opening of diplomatic dialogue with Syria and Iran
- engage in "direct presidential diplomacy" with Iran without preconditions

Even if he accomplishes one third of what he said he would do, the perspective of the middle eastern folks towards the US will change dramatically. This would result in a decrease of the influence of religious fundementalists over the region. Making the world a better place, and putting a stick in the plans of the war-mongers that are demonizing "the others" towards a world of wars which will ensure the flow of money towards their corporations.

Anyway, the average man in Turkey does not think that there will be a difference on US global politics whoever the president is. It is certain that he will be more liked than Dubya, though. A more sophisticated view amongst others is that this is the defeat of white supremacy, but time itself will reveal if the change is permanent and well established amonst the western people.

I am enthusiastic because a black man is the president of the US, and he seems like a man of conscience. Also suspicious, because hovewer noble the intentions of the leading team are, a superpower has to commit sins, to hold the power it wields. Because of the companies, sects, cliches, corporates that are supporting the system, and their wishes. Imperialism, stop. (Hai comrade Vemu =)

Turkish media sometimes underlines that Obama will not support Turkey's Armenian and Kurdish policies. I am no fan of my countries own policies, so its not a criterion to evaluate Obama for me. But I hope what he does will end in better relations with the two peoples.

I hope what Obama does will be different then his predecessors (predecessors, rite?). He is black, charismatic, seemingly a man of conscience, too populistic for my taste, but hundred times better for the world than Palin and co.

(Seriously, that Palin fellow gave me headaches. A woman showing the pictures of herself shooting animals as part of election propaganda. Headaches.)

[VemuKhaham]

(Though it's worth noting, Vemu, that there is a Socialist party in the US and a number of other parties aside from the big two (Democrats and Republicans), but they just generally don't have the support and numbers to accomplish anything substantive).

Yes, I'm aware, though that leads to another point that I would disagree with in the American democratic system, which is quite fundamental actually: because of the electoral vote system which assigns an entire state to one party instead of accounting for all the different voters individually, there seems to be no way for new parties to develop other than the Democrats/Republicans, which in turn does not quite stimulate political renewal. I'm sure there are people who would be willing to vote for other parties than the two great ones, granted that they would have any hopes for those votes to actually matter. In many other countries, there are a great amount of political parties, because the system of voting counts each individual vote instead of the collective vote of a given region. The only way to achieve any significant change in the US seems to me therefore to be a change within the two ruling parties, which, frankly, is hardly ever noticeable, except hopefully now, with Obama taking up a somewhat more social stance, such as concerning healthcare, or concerning a greater government involvement in the economic system. Apparently, a great many people are hoping for more social reforms in those areas, and it is showing now that Obama, as a rare exception, is somewhat able to represent them.

Now, I'm not a full-fledged commie (but you may call me comrade, Menat ), and neither are the Netherlands even close to communism (our last openly communist party was desolved somewhere in the eighties I believe), but we do have several leftwing parties, some of them very moderate such as the Labour Party, others, such as the Socialist Party, or the Left Green Party, more outspoken, and the same goes for the right wing, which is essentially moderate, with some gradation. I think, respectfully, that this system has more merit concerning this issue. There are, of course, other specific things that the US system does well.

And yes, I don't mind political or any other discussions here. In fact, it gives me a good vent to finally bounce my opinion upon some actual inhabitants of the US. You know, living here with all the media hyping US elections, gives you many opinions but nobody actually of the US to discuss them with. As much as I often felt the urge, I can't go talking back to the tv.

[Japic]

Nov 5, 2008 11:24:57 GMT -5 VemuKhaham said:

As much as I often felt the urge, I can't go talking back to the tv.

Sure you can, just don't expect to spark a conversation. Thats just plain crazy, no matter which party you're with.

Truth be told Vemu, I feel that our system is pretty flawed when it comes to parties also. Seems like if you don't vote for the big two, you might as well not vote at all. Though I think this stems from the true problem we are facing:

We've not had a presidential candidate to be proud of for far too long. Any more the elections are a matter of choosing between the lesser of evils; we know neither will be truly great, but it's the only choice we have. Obama is (IMO) the first candidate in a long time that gives me any real hope for change and improvement. I don't know what the next several years will bring, but I can hope it's not more of the same crap we've suffered under the last eight. Hopefully he'll be good for us, and our world neighbors.

Hopefully he'll leave a better legacy behind than the Bushes have; anything but war and strife would be nice.

[Wizard]

I voted on everything on the ballot except the presidential election because I didn't feel like I had enough information.

The obvious remedy would have been to do a bit more research beforehand and cast my vote (not that it would have mattered...did anyone realistically expect CA to go anywhere but Obama?), but I'll have to save that for next time.

I'm definitely a hypocrite on the issue, but in a perfect world, we'd place as much importance on paying taxes, supporting families, and helping our respective communities as we do on something that happens once every four years. I suspect many of the problems we try to solve by legislation would just melt away with a bit more integrity.

Citizenship is an ongoing effort rather than an event, IMO.

[Japic]

Nov 5, 2008 12:08:31 GMT -5 Wizard said:

Citizenship is an ongoing effort rather than an event, IMO.

I can agree with you there Wizard. Obama claims to believe the same. In his victory speech he says, "What began twenty one months go in the depths of winter cannot end on this autumn night. This victory alone is not the change we seek; it is only the chance for us to make that change; and that cannot happen if we go back to the way things were."

I'm in full agreeance. I'm willing to see where this goes and what I can do to contribute. He's got ideals I can get behind unlike our current president; I'm ready for some change.

[TheUdjat]

What Japic said. All over the place.

Vemu, a whole lot of Americans hate the electoral system, too. Unfortunately, it doesn't look likely to change--the trouble is that it would probably take a constitutional amendment to change it, which would require approval of all the states, which would never pass because of what the electoral college does--it gives power to certain particular states over the others. That, in my opinion, is the problem with the electoral college. You see candidates campaigning in Florida, Ohio, Iowa, or other random places, very intensively, instead of going everywhere. Virginia had the fortune of being a so-called 'battleground' state this year, so we got a lot of attention, but usually everyone assumes we'll go Republican and walks away.

And that's part of why we have poor voter turnout. A republican in California looks at the polls and realizes there's really no point. They don't count.

I'd have to do some research to figure out why we wound up with the electoral college, but I suspect it was just a good idea at the time for a couple of reasons: One, because when the founding fathers put things together, they were thinking of the USA as 13 separate countries with a unified government rather than a country of 13 partitions. Two, a chain like that probably made it a hell of a lot easier to count votes before electronic means came around. Three, because states have always been very, very protective of their personal power--that's why we have a Senate and House of Reps. Some founders wanted representation to be done with an equal amount for each state, and others wanted it to be based on population. So they did both.

It's out of date, but it's very hard to get rid of things perceived of as 'tradition'. Lobbying is another huge problem in American politics, but that's a whole other story.

As for the 2-party government, the bigger problem there is not so much the electoral college as the degree to which things are entrenched. It is possible for other parties to get popularity, and therefore power, but the structure does not allow it to happen on a national level first. It would have to happen with local representatives first. But the trouble in either event is not the electoral college, it's just the overwhelming number of votes each side gets--and if you don't join the club, your vote might as well not count.

Any steps to fix this would be difficult, at best, and would face the opposition of... well, everyone in power. Switching to a popular vote for president wouldn't be enough. Changing the whole voting system might, but you'd have to integrate a system where you could cast multiple votes, or perhaps rank candidates in the order that you want them. And then, of course, the other necessity would be to throw out the campaigning system currently in place, forcing candidates to raise their own funds, and give them all the same opportunity to speak their mind. Same television space, same travel fund, etc. Otherwise you're favoring the parties with more money--the Democrats and Republicans.

A lot of Obama supporters like myself don't want to admit it, but part of Obama's huge success was simply monetary. He had lots of campaign funds. One could say this is because he got lots of donations, which is true, but it still amounts to the same thing--he had more money to get his message out. I believe his message was better (there were no shortage of McCain speeches, rallies, and ads), but he did get more opportunity to speak it. And the Libertarian Party, Green Party, and others... well, they just couldn't compete.

So those are some of the problems, as I see them. But we'd need an unprecedented overhaul to fix them, and a person willing to get elected through one system and then to turn around and dismantle it... and that's a lot to ask of anyone in power.

[ryngo]

I was happy that Texas was as close to going to Obama as it was.

It didn't, of course. It went Republican like it always does, but I voted for Obama.

He won in Austin.

(Ask me sometime how it feels to live in the same state George W. came from...'shiver'.)

[TheZebraShakes™]

I would've voted socialist, but based on what I know of Brian Moore, I'm not convinced that he was what this country needed at this particular point in time.

(And my bad. . . it was McCain who would've been the oldest president ever, Obama's just the fifth youngest, the first black, and the 44th white

[TheUdjat]

Now if we could only get all these people posting in games...

[VemuKhaham]

Are all of you on pilgrimage to Washington? Haven't seen anyone here in the past two days or so.

[Yakumo]

Well Inauguration was today, and yesterday was Martin Luther King Day so we had another holiday the day before, I suspect things will start to go back to normal soon?

[TheUdjat]

I live by DC, so not much of a pilgrimmage for me. However, I did just move into my new place, which doesn't have internet access yet, and the federal government was closed for the past two days, so there was no work. Hence, no online time for me.

Incidentally, I skipped trying to see the inauguration in person 'cause it was just too damn packed, and they closed most of the bridges from VA to DC.