Multiclassing and Saves

[TheZebraShakes™]

It just bugs me.

I can think I'm all cool playing a guy with a good fortitude save and a decent reflex save and I'm super high level

And then here comes the fighter/ranger/rogue/somestupidprestigeclass and all of their saves skyrocket well above my single highest save, and they're about four levels lower than I am.

What's that about.

I say, you get the saves you start with from your first class and then when you switch classes, you don't get the base saves, you only increase your saves like normal, but according to what your new good and poor saves are.

Or you just stop multi-classing and taking stupid prestige classes.

OK, I just had to put that out there.m

[Deekin]

Star Wars Saga Edition solved that by having all saves progress at the same rank.

There is a way around it, but it invoves more math.
Look up all classes for a save, and add up if they progress good or bad, and then, going to the universal save table, go up the colum for good saves, and them up the colom for bad saves, and add those two numbers together. Thats your new base save.

EG: A Fighter 2/Monk 2/Rouge 4/Barb 1

Fighter, Monk and Barb give good Fort, Rouge Poor- So you have 5 Levels of good save, and 3 of Poor. Five levels of good save gives you +4, and 4 level of poor give you +1, so now your Fort Save is +5 instead of +9.

[TheUdjat]

thezebrashakes said:

It just bugs me.

I can think I'm all cool playing a guy with a good fortitude save and a decent reflex save and I'm super high level

And then here comes the fighter/ranger/rogue/somestupidprestigeclass and all of their saves skyrocket well above my single highest save, and they're about four levels lower than I am.

What's that about.

I say, you get the saves you start with from your first class and then when you switch classes, you don't get the base saves, you only increase your saves like normal, but according to what your new good and poor saves are.

Or you just stop multi-classing and taking stupid prestige classes.

OK, I just had to put that out there.m

On the flip side, doing that kind of multiclassing leaves the character extremely deficient in their non-favored saves. Typically this means a really, really bad Will save, since the best characters for multi-classing like that are fort-favored.

But I agree. A more standard 'character level' system would work better.

As for prestige classes... they kind of annoy me in general. I don't see a lot of people that don't create their character without a specific prestige class in mind. This has always bothered me, since I feel like adventuring should be unpredictable - you don't know what'll happen to you, what sorts of bizarre things you'll encounter, what skills you'll use.

That's why I'm kind of fond of the ad hoc system Vemu's been using in Rinascimento (though I'd like to make some adjustments to it). Your gains are based directly off of what your character's actually done in-game.

But I've strayed far from the topic by now. Sorry.

[Rojito]

But dont forget when you multiclass like that you start takeing XP drains, and that is much worse then the benefit from high saves.

[Toptomcat]

Also, you tend to be screwed for BAB unless you approach things very cautiously.

[TheUdjat]

rojito said:

But dont forget when you multiclass like that you start takeing XP drains, and that is much worse then the benefit from high saves.

If you're dipping into level one and two of a lot of classes, then no, you don't.

Also, you tend to be screwed for BAB unless you approach things very cautiously.

Very true for classes with 3/4 BAB. But again, for the classes this tactic often works best for (fighter-types), this is no concern at all. A Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger (like my very own Wanderer) suffers no BAB problems. Dipping into Monk isn't even horrible, if for instance you wanted +2 to all saves, decent unarmed attack, wis bonus to AC...

It's not a great way to do things, but these are very easy to circumvent.

[Rojito]

0k well so long as you keep ALL your classes about the same level then ya, no xp loss, but there will come a time when you wish to get more of certain levels and then you will, right?

[Japic]

Speaking from experience with Belshar, my sorcerer/Worlock. It is ofttimes better to stick with one, then get stuck halfway with both. That character was built to flavor though and not mechanically sound. (no pun intended on the warforged)

Most of the time I can't comprehend having more than two classes. Two is bad enough.

[TheUdjat]

rojito said:

0k well so long as you keep ALL your classes about the same level then ya, no xp loss, but there will come a time when you wish to get more of certain levels and then you will, right?

Yeah, but that's what you've got Favored Classes for, or humans and half-elves, who could raised any single class above the rest and suffer no problems. But most frequently what you tend to encounter is Prestige Classes - also don't count for XP penalty purposes.

So if you swing it right, there's really no problem.

I'd still rather have a merit-based system of advancement.

[Toptomcat]

Perhaps you want a system other than D&D? There are some good'uns out there, either ones with specifically merit-based advancement systems or just point buy character creation and advancement that can easily be modified as a GM desires to only apply to skills and abilities used in play.
There's Shadowrun, Exalted, BRP, White Wolf's WOD derivitives, GURPS derivitives, Legend of the Five Rings, the surprisingly flexible Mutants and Masterminds...

[TheZebraShakes™]

Man, I don't even use XP.

Well, at home we don't have problems with tweaking and changing the things that cause the greatest problems for us.

We created a different kind of wealth system that I'm putting to use in my game on these boards and we're always looking for ways to smooth out and reconstruct things.

I just wanted to see how you all felt about the issue at hand and what you've experienced in the past.

I for one am not the biggest fan of multiclassing. If anything, I would work on designing my own class which takes the features that I like about five others and somehow combines them to make something flavorful in design and suited to the needs of my character concept.

But in all honesty, I just don't like it when people have higher saves than me

[TheUdjat]

toptomcat said:

Perhaps you want a system other than D&D? There are some good'uns out there, either ones with specifically merit-based advancement systems or just point buy character creation and advancement that can easily be modified as a GM desires to only apply to skills and abilities used in play.
There's Shadowrun, Exalted, BRP, White Wolf's WOD derivitives, GURPS derivitives, Legend of the Five Rings, the surprisingly flexible Mutants and Masterminds...

I've played a few of these, and looked at most of them. The only one I find particularly viable is White Wolf's various forms - although I admit I never truly mastered Shadowrun or LotFR well enough to form a true opinion.

Actually, I take that back. M&M is an extremely fluid, adaptable system... but it's still not really merit-based. BRP is extremely merit based (you literally gain skills that you use more frequently), but it is otherwise not an especially 'clean' system. It's frankly awkward, especially for combat, though it suits the atmosphere of Cthulhu (I've heard people talk about RuneQuest, but I've never played this form of BRP).

I guess my problem is that I only see a handful of clean-cut, well-organized systems out there. There are a whole bunch of options, but a lot of them seem very clunky and awkward. AD&D used to be that way. d20 seems to have a lot of the internal awkwardness of the old system hammered out of it, but maybe that's personal bias (it wasn't the first system I played, but I've played it more than any other). It just seems like there ought to be a way to keep the mechanics while taking it away from a 'level' system.

And as I said, M&M is kind of like that. But like Champions, there are almost too freakin' many options. If I were to truly use M&M as a system for some kind of game (excepting an actual superheroes game), I'd probably want to have some pre-made special abilities using the Powers that characters can choose from.

But once again... not merit-based. It's less rigid, sure, but it's still not 'You did lots of fighting, so now your BAB increases!'

I don't know. Just rambling. There's a lot of things I'd like to do, but realistically I'll never get to most of them.