4th Edition

[TheUdjat]

tembo said:

Where's the fun in that?

Actually, 4 'minions' per PC is supposed to be an average encounter, not a 'not breaking a sweat'. But what Deekin fails to point out is that there are a few types of monsters possible for an encounter. Minions, 'regular' monsters, 'elite' monsters, and the powerful villainesque kind that are a formidable challenge for characters.

'Minions' allow you to finally have an actual, honest-to-god horde of zombies assault your characters and not have it be a total headache to calculate. And, like everything else, you don't HAVE to use it.

The Heros are Special, and they can do Special things, and are Heros. With capital letters.

The object of playing is for the PCs to become heroes, not start as them.

PCs have always, ALWAYS begun as more powerful people than most everyone else around them. This is not new and unique to 4th edition, and it's not game-breaking. Characters always have room to develop and grow, and this way you can have a low-level game where characters are vulnerable, but still capable of doing some cool stuff, without a lucky crit making them completely splat in an instant.

Just because you start out capable of doing special stuff doesn't mean you're a hero.

Having 'normal' characters is great in theory, but it never really works right in practice. Fantasy is just not the place to look for that kind of thing. If you want average people confronting monsters and the supernatural with realistic results, look at Cthulhu.

[Japic]

I'm going to have to agree with Udjat regarding the 'hero" feel of all PCs in our current system. If you don't believe that there is a difference between normal PCs and the regular folks around them, I'd recommend playing a game with no more than NPC classes. See how your opinion differs about PCs not being the least bit "heroic" then.

As to the feel of a game, tolkien-esque or not. Don't forget that the game world can be pruned back to allow the precise feel you're looking for. It's all in what sources and rules you allow into a game.

MKan's running right now his Conan-esque game for an alternate local group. They meet only once a month, but the game is pruned way down in what's available. We've got NO magic items; very expensive alchemal items and healing salves; and a completely magic/psionic-less party. Some of the bad guys we'll meet will have some small magical ability, though nothing huge. It's the feel of Conan; a raw, human world, barely on the edge of awareness that the supernatural exists in more than folklore.

Point is that in order to get any certain feel, you've only got to trim the sources and rules you'll use to fit the scenario. Don't blame the system in it's full glory for bringing too much or too little flavor. Flavor is our job as a DM, not the system's for what DMs can do with it.

More specifically on topic again; if you can get enough interested parties Deekin, I'd say try it. Though I, for one, don't want my first taste to be online. I want to sit down look at the rules and then play with them for a night. I'll get far more exposure and better understanding in person than the perpetually slow PbP version.

[ryngo]

I wonder what a game would be like using only NPC classes. Talk about ordinary people having to rise to the occasion.

Short-lived I think. The game and the characters.

[K Man]

a) I wanted to jump in on the hottest thread on the boards...twice.

b) I am afraid of Shakes taking my post count, so I need to keep posting.

c) I side with Udj and Japic. The system is a skeleton, it up to the DMs to bring it to life.

[VemuKhaham]

Actually, that's what I'm doing with Rinascimento. I'm not even allowing them to level in NPC classes, though they do progress with feats and abilities. So far, I think it's gone well. It did achieve the feel that I hoped it would. Though there is the fact that that experiment is taking place in a real world setting, not in a fantasy one. That would bring a whole new set of problems, but nothing too serious to overcome, I am sure. I bet it would even make for a great setting, and one I would love to try out some time.

[TheUdjat]

I have often thought of stealing some of the Rinascimento ideas and applying them to a fantasy setting. The trouble is, even in Rinascimento that main characters have some significant edges over normal people, particularly in the form of Hero Points. I don't think this is a bad thing, but I point it out, again, to show that this is not an unusual setting feature.

Also, we really all should be horribly dead in Rinascimento, but Vemu is merciful. Low level characters really don't survive well, and at any given conflict they could die with a lucky hit. Heck, my character was hovering at about 2 hit points for a third of the game.

[Rojito]

Action points? oh yeah that thing i used up to save your ass as we crashed... did we ever get any back? lol. I like Rina, and i would play another one if someone ran it, but it is a bit slow and its gotta be hard on the DM to figure out how to reward players...

[Jolith]

deekin said:

D&D was not desinged with Tolken in mind. Gygax only put in the races becouse he was pestered into it by his players. Gary Gygax, has specifically listed influences including Jack Vance, Robert E. Howard, L. Sprague de Camp, and Fletcher Pratt, Fritz Leiber, Poul Anderson, A. Merritt, and H. P. Lovecraft.

So complaining that D&D doesn't do Tolken well is like complaining that your screwdriver doesn't work as a hammer.

I beg to differ on this quote. How can you say that D&D didn't have influence from Tolkien considering in D&D (the original books) halflings were called HOBBITS! Yeah .. no influence ... none at all.

[VemuKhaham]

Lol, the low HP is to encourage you to chose your battles. In fact, that monk that attacked Jalyk could've killed him if he rolled a few numbers higher. It seemed like a pitiful challenge, but a man with an axe and the faith of God never is.

As for the slowness of the game, I can imagine your critique. I will take it with me to consider, and try to make posts that are a little more... what's the word... 'fast-forwarding'? Also, there will be plenty of action on the future. Hopefully that answers your comment? If not, let me know what could be done.

And the Hero Points are indeed what you say they are. And yes, they are refilled every next day. In the past some of you have even forgotten them. Use them, if you value your average, totally standard, puny lives!

But enough advertisement for my game.

[Deekin]

Just FYI, here are some Monster Stat Blocks from the Radiers of Oakhurst Adventure

Kobold Minions (Level 1 Minion)
Small Natural Humanoid XP 25
Initiative +3 Senses Perception +1, darkvision
HP A minion dies when hit by an attack that deals damage.
AC 15; Fortitude 11, Reflex 13, Will 11; see also trap sense
Speed 6
m Spear (standard; at-will) • Weapon .
+5 vs. AC; 2 damage.
r Spear (standard; at-will) • Weapon .
Range 10/20; +5 vs. AC; 2 damage.
Shifty (minor, at will).
The kobold shifts 1 square as a minor action.
Trap Sense.
The kobold gains a +2 bonus to all defenses against traps.
Alignment Evil Languages Draconic.
Skills Stealth +5, Thievery +5.
Str 8 (-1) Dex 16 (+3) Wis 12 (+1).
Con 12 (+1) Int 9 (-1) Cha 10 (+0).
Equipment hide armor, light shield, 3 spears

Kobold Skirmishers Level 1 Skirmisher
Small Natural Humanoid XP 100
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +0, darkvision
HP 27 Bloodied 13.
AC 15; Fortitude 11, Reflex 14, Will 13; see also trap sense
Speed 6
m Spear (standard; at-will) • Weapon .
+6 vs. AC; 1d8 damage.
r Spear (standard; at-will) • Weapon .
Range 10/20; +6 vs. AC; 1d8 damage.
Combat Advantage
The Kobold Skirmisher deals an extra 1d6 damage on melee and ranged attacks against any target it has combat advantage against
Mob Attack
The kobold skirmisher gains a +1 bonus to attack rolls per kobold ally adjacent to the target
Shifty (minor, at will).
The kobold shifts 1 square as a minor action.
Trap Sense.
The kobold gains a +2 bonus to all defenses against traps.
Alignment Evil Languages Draconic.
Skills Acrobatics +8 Stealth +10, Thievery +10.
Str 8 (-1) Dex 16 (+3) Wis 10 (+0).
Con 11 (+0) Int 6 (-2) Cha 15 (+2).
Equipment hide armor, light shield, 3 spears, 2 sp.

Deathjump Spider
Medium Natural Beast (Spider)
Level 4 Skirmisher XP 300
AC 18, Fort 14, Ref 17, Will 14,
HP 38, Bloodied 19, Init +5, Spd 6, Clb 6, Jmp 6
Senses darkvision, Perception +9
Attacks: Melee Bite +11 vs AC; 1d10+4
Limited Powers: Melee, Death from Above: Standard, jmp 6 AND bite +11 vs AC 2d10+4. Rchrg 6
Prodigious Leap: Move, jmp 12, no opp attacks. Rchg 5.
Str +4 (15), Con +4 (15), Dex +5 (16), Int -2 (2), Wis +4 (14), Cha +3 (13)

Varkaze, Hobgoblin Warcaster Level 3 Controller (Leader)
Medium natural humanoid (goblin) xp 150
Initiative +5 Senses Perception +4; low-light vision
HP 46 Bloodied 23
AC 17 Fortitude 13 Reflex 15 Will 14
Speed 6
m Staff(standard; at-will) * Weapon
+8 vs AC; 1d8+1 damage.
M Shock Staff (standard; recharge 4,5,6) * Lightning, Weapon
+8 vs AC; 2d10+4 lightning damage, and the target is dazed until the end of the hobgoblin warcaster's next turn.
R Force Lance (standard; recharge 5,6) * Force
Range 5; +7 vs Fortitude; 2d6 +4 force damage, and the target slides 3 squares.
C Force Pulse(standard; recharge 6) * Force
Close blast 5; +7 vs Reflex; 2d8 +4 force damage; and the target is pushed 1 square and knocked prone. Miss: Half damage, and the target is neither pushed nor knocked prone.
Hobgoblin Resilience (immediate reaction, when the hobgoblin warcaster suffers an effect that a save can end; encounter)
The hobgoblin warcaster makes a saving throw against the triggering effect.
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Goblin
Skills Arcana +10, Athletics +4, Stealth +10
Str 13(+2) Dex 14(+3) Wis 16(+4)
Con 14(+3) Int 19(+5) Cha 13(+2)
Equipment robes, staff, 30 gp, garnet worth 15 gp.

Vrak, Hobgoblin Soldier Level 3 Soldier
Medium natural humanoid (goblin) xp 150
Initiative +7 Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
HP 47 Bloodied 23
AC 20 (22 with phalanx soldier) Fortitude 18 Reflex 16 Will 16
Speed 5
m Flail(standard; at-will) * Weapon
+7 vs AC; 1d10+4 damage; the target is slowed until the end of the hobgoblin soldier's next turn, and the target is marked until the end of the hobgoblin soldier's next turn.
M Formation Strike (standard; at-will) * Weapon
Requires flail; +7 vs AC; 1d10+4 damage, and the hobgoblin soldier shifts 1 square provided it ends in a space adjacent to another hobgoblin.
Hobgoblin Resilience (immediate reaction, when the hobgoblin soldier suffers an effect that a save can end; encounter)
The hobgoblin soldier makes a saving throw against the triggering effect.
Phalanx Soldier
The hobgoblin soldier gains a +2 bonus to AC while at least one hobgoblin ally is adjacent to it.
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Goblin
Skills Athletics +12, Stealth +10
Str 19(+5) Dex 14(+3) Wis 14(+3)
Con 15(+3) Int 11(+1) Cha 10(+1)
Equipment scale armor, heavy shield, flail, 10 gp.

Hobgoblin Archer: Level 3 Artillery
Medium natural humanoid (goblin) xp 150
Initiative +7 Senses Perception +3; low-light vision
HP 39 Bloodied 19
AC 17 Fortitude 13 Reflex 15 Will 13
Speed 6
m Longsword (standard; at-will) * Weapon
+6 vs AC: 1d8 + 2 damage
r Longbow (standard; at-will) * Weapon
Range 20/40; +9 vs AC; 1d10+4 damage, and the hobgoblin archer grants an ally within 5 squares of it a +2 bonus to its next ranged attack roll against same target.
Hobgoblin Archer (immediate reaction, when the hobgoblin archer suffers an effect that a save can end; encounter)
The hobgoblin archer makes a saving throw against the triggering effect.
Alignment Evil Languages Common, Goblin
Skills Athletics +5
Str 14(+3) Dex 19(+5) Wis 14(+3)
Con 15(+3) Int 11(+1) Cha 10(+1)
Equipment leather armor, longsword, longbow, quiver of 30 arrows, 10 sp.

Nightscale
Young Black Dragon Level 4 Solo Lurker
Large natural magical beast (aquatic, dragon) XP 875
Initiative: +11 Senses: Perception +9; darkvision
HP 280; Bloodied 140 See also bloodied breath
AC 24; Fort 19, Ref 21, Will 18
Resist: 15 Acid
Saving Throws +5
Speed 7, fly 7 (clumsy), overland flight 10, swim 7
Action points 2
• Bite (standard; at will) * Acid
Reach 2: +10 vs. AC; 1d6 + 3 damage, and ongoing 5 acid damage (save ends)
• Claw (standard; at will)
Reach 2: +8 vs. AC; 1d4 +3 damage
• Double attack (standard; at will)
The dragon makes 2 claw attacks
• Tail slash (immediate reaction, when a melee attack misses the dragon; at will)
The dragon uses its tail to attack the enemy that missed it; reach 2: +8 vs AC; 1d6 + 4 damage and the target is pushed 1 square
• Breath Weapon (standard; recharge 5 6) * Acid
Close blast 5; +7 vs Reflex; 1d12 + 3 acid damage and the target takes ongoing 5 acid damage and takes a -4 penalty to AC (save ends both).
• Bloodied Breath (Immediate reaction, when first bloodied; encounter) * Acid
The dragon's breath weapon recharges automatically, and the dragon uses it immediately.
• Cloud of Darkness (standard; sustain minor; recharge 3 4 5 6) * Zone
Close burst 2: this power creates a zone of darkness that remains in place until the end of the dragon's next turn. The zone blocks line of sight for all creatures except the dragon. Any creature entirely within the area (except the dragon) is blinded.
• Frightful presence (standard, encounter) * Fear
Close burst 5; targets enemies: +5 vs. Will; the target is stunned until the end of the dragon's nest turn. Aftereffect: the target takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls (save ends).

Alignment: Evil Languages: Draconic
Skills: Nature +9, Stealth +17
Str 16 (+5) Dex 20 (+7) Wis 15 (+4) Con 16 (+5) Int 12 (+3) Cha 10 (+2)

[Rojito]

No Vemu, i love the game, its just it seems our characters grow a little more slowly then they would in normal DnD, their growth is what honestly makes me want to play. The reason their growht is slow is cause its more realistic and giving them useful and accurate boni is difficult, but i still eagerly await every level because of how well you design every bonus. I would rather it continue as it is than for you to skip over even the briefest of things.

[VemuKhaham]

okay, all right then. Well, as for the rewards, last time you guys were updated was sort of an in-between update, more or less unforeseen by me. The current chapter is actually a chapter that I never planned, but included because the characters wanted to do all those things. I remember to have promised during chapter II a character update that will be different and hopefully better, but things got 'delayed' a little. Players always chose to go in different directions than you expect. It kind of makes me doubt whether a DM has the ability to promise at all.

[Japic]

vemukhaham said:

Players always chose to go in different directions than you expect. It kind of makes me doubt whether a DM has the ability to promise at all.

Promises are like deadlines; they're meant to be broken Vemu.

It's prefectly normal for a DM to be caught off guard by what direction a PC or group of them wishes to go. The only way to be a sucessful DM is to work the new (and often unexpected) direction into the story. If a DM can't adjust and expects to railroad the PCs into the only course of action he's planned... that makes poor DM. Likewise goes for a DM who writes his story, and provides NPCs to complete that story line, with or without the help of PCs. That's bad too. I'm not saying that anyone around here does it; merely stating my point of view.

If you plan to continue on as a DM, get used to the Players not taking your planned course friend.

[Rojito]

You should always question the obvious as a player... If the dm shows the obvious direction you should go... turn to the left and go that way

[ryngo]

vemukhaham said:

okay, all right then. Well, as for the rewards, last time you guys were updated was sort of an in-between update, more or less unforeseen by me. The current chapter is actually a chapter that I never planned, but included because the characters wanted to do all those things. I remember to have promised during chapter II a character update that will be different and hopefully better, but things got 'delayed' a little. Players always chose to go in different directions than you expect. It kind of makes me doubt whether a DM has the ability to promise at all.

I hadn't looked at that game much, Vemu, but that's pretty clever!
It makes for an entirely different kind of game.
Oh, had I more time! I'll have to print it out and read it all now.

[VemuKhaham]

Yep, I agree Japic, it's the thin red line that all DM's have to balance on. You can't run a good game without planning ahead, but you can't lay down your plans on the players if you want to run a good game. Perhaps a DM may be able to promise, but he's also the only one able to break a promise without it being a bad thing. A well, enough D&D-philosophy.

Thanks Ryngo, hope you enjoy the read! Let me know what you think if you find the time.

[TheZebraShakes™]

Yep, I agree Japic, it's the thin red line that all DM's have to balance on. You can't run a good game without planning ahead,

With that in mind, all of the players in the game I'm running might as well just drop out now, 'cause I've got nothing

My philosophy is that I'm lazy, so if eight players can't contribute enough to make the game fun for everyone involved, then why should I be expected to do it.

I don't really have any comment on 4th edition at the moment. It's not like they're forcing me to drop everything 3.5 and switch over immediately anyway.

Maybe I'll start playing when 4.5 comes out and all of the bugs are squashed.

4e 4ever

[VemuKhaham]

With that in mind, all of the players in the game I'm running might as well just drop out now, 'cause I've got nothing

Whoops, guess I'll have to take those words back. But surely, you're doing some kind of planning? When the gang decides to go rob a bank, you're at least thinking of what they may find at the bank, don't you? I haven't been keeping up with the Idiot's game, but I remember some very well prepared encounters and intrigues when we were still playing the old Guilds game, and we entered the house of that satyr and that nymph and their whole clan. Judging on only that, I'd say that wasn't the product of laziness.

[TheUdjat]

No, I'm pretty sure she's winging all of it.

[Lin]

Apr 11, 2008 17:23:05 GMT -5 TheZebraShakes™ said:

My philosophy is that I'm lazy, so if eight players can't contribute enough to make the game fun for everyone involved, then why should I be expected to do it.

That's actually my philosophy, she's just so lazy she copied it rather then make her own.