The moral debate hour...with KMan!!

[K Man]

Hey everyone. It was recently brought to my attention by another online gamer that discussions and debate can slow a game down quickly. Although they add flavor and can cause some deep thinking (Dangerous habit, I know.) they can frustrate some players to no end.

So I'm going to put up this thread with hypothetical situations, or ones I've encountered in the past, and judge peoples responses. This will help me tailor the game a bit more to the players I'm not used to yet and keep it going smoothly, without getting bogged down.

Now, the first example actually comes from my Dice and Paper campaign I'm in the middle of right now.

The campaign is centered around a war...or really a genocide. All of the PCs are monsters or monster races rather, and they are fighting a well organized army of "Pure Races". (Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Halfings, Gnomes etc) There is but one last "free" city that's not oppressed by the pure races (Freeport) and their army, commonly referred to as "The Hammer". Which is short, for "The Hammer of Purification."

"It is from fire and through blood that our new future will be forged..."

Their motto and words that every monster has come to fear. They control all the magic and have slaughtered/captured every monster or powerful magic creature in the land. They even had a massive battle a century ago and wiped nearly every dragon from the face of the land...save for the few that managed to live and now do so in hiding.

Anyways...the PCs are fighting this war, having captured an archaic vessel and terrorizing the seas with it, they are moving onto their first massive land battle soon. During their seafaring, they have learned of an artifact that was sunk en route to Freeport by Hammer Ships. The ship still remains at the bottom of the sea and the artifact is supposedly still there, having never been retrieved.

The PCs visit the site and find out why...a Kraken now lives in the sunken vessel and has become quite attached to the artifact. He demands a sacrifice of 300 Living people to be delivered to him in exchange for the PCs to head down to the sunken vessel and retrieve the artifact themselves.

What should/did the PCs do?

1) Find a small section of The Hammers army, capture them and feed them to the Kraken.

2) Say "Fuck you Kraken!" and attack, taking the beast by force. (The PCs were 6th level at this time.)

3) Return to Freeport and drag a ship full of prisoners out to the site and say, "Here you are Beast, give us the artifact." (As a side note, those of you familiar with Freeport should know that they keep prisoners in sealed ships, floating prisons of rot and decay where food is dumped into the hull and the prisoners fight and kill each other.)

4) Forget the artifact and Kraken all together and drink Mai-Tai's with the Sealord on the beaches of Freeport.

5) Something else entirely.



Now those of you in the campaign, please refrain from spilling the secret, but feel free to back up or re-introduce your debate topics here.

What do you guys think?

[Japic]

Damn morals ! !

This stupid thing took us about an hour maybe two to reach a decent resolution.

[Toptomcat]

Poison the vessel by pumping in toxins and sewage from land, hiring ten guards with heavy crossbows for ten days to keep any forces hired by it from establishing a beachead.
That's how my char got the XP for an Aboleth at level 2.
;D

[Merovingian]

Ah yes, but as a good character can you simply kill those people for you own gains even if it my be for the greater good?

[K Man]

{lol..fucking Arabis}

Little did you all know that Arabis is Greek for - "Monkey Wrench in Gaming Gears. "

Just kidding Mayanard, you know I love ya. Anyways, having recently cruised through my Book of Exalted Deeds this does bring up an excellent point. Now that I have both Exalted and Vile Darkness, I feel well versed in game morals.

Do the ends justify the means?

Or would it be more of a good action to simply die trying to do what's right and only placing your life in danger?

[BluSpecs]

WARNING! Kman live for Debates! ;D

[TheUdjat]

I can't answer this question, because I don't have a character. Whenever I'm consulting an in-game decision, the first thing I consider is what the most logical and moral course of action would be to that character. A mage, a warrior, a rogue, a noble - They're all going to have different ideas of what's acceptable and what's not, and that's not even going into the complexities of personalities.

Just my general observation. I'm not sure what you're hoping to gaing by asking us what we'd do - At least not in my situation. I feel it's up to the GM to create the setting, and the players to work themselves at least partially into it, bearing in mind the flow of the game (is this heroic, is this desperation, is this evil, is this common people, etc.?) - And from that point, up to the GM to tailor things more to the individuals.

But arguments and debates will always arise. I can foresee my future CofC character having millions of little qualms with the current party, which I hope won't amount to anything worse than interesting roleplaying situations.

[K Man]

I'm not sure what you're hoping to gaing by asking us what we'd do

I was looking for a general consensus of what you would consider doing. But I can tell already, from your case, that you like to dig too deep into semantics, forcing the debate to go on forever...

Kudos man..me too:)

No seriously, I was just looking for a general opinion. Not class specific. Also, I agree with you, it is the GM's job to present the situation and for the PCs to work their way out of it in terms with the game storyline etc. That's what this was.

They had to get 300 souls in trade for something, or find another way around it. I.E. - One possible solution was to quit and walk away, but that wouldn't have been in accordance with the game. Imagine if they quit everything.

And I do tailor games to my PCs. In a future post I'm putting up after Saturday, I'll have an exmaple of how tailored my games can be.

Keep the thoughts coming people...like BlueSpecs says, "I love debate"

[BluSpecs]

Can I have my campaign taylored to acentuate certain ahem....lower body areas? ;D

You know like the cock rockers of the '70's?

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Wizard]

I'd let slip to the Hammer that an artifact of unimaginable power is buried under the ocean. The old gods that created the thing, however, preached pacifism, even if they never followed it. In any case, the thing can only be approached by 100 individuals, 3 times. The ones already there must stay and work on the ceremony, and none who will not participate in the ceremony can watch. Oh, and because the gods preached pacifism, they'll strike anyone with a weapon dead the instant they enter the vicinity.

[TheUdjat]

Even if I bitch about semantics, here's an answer.

Assuming that I am a character interested in doing the 'greatest good', as well as simultaneously being a monstrous creature, I would advocate one of two options (based on what I know).

1. Take the prisoners and give the Kraken 300. This is an option, to me, because if these prisons are already virtual deathtraps to those in them, clearly overcrowded and ill-cared for, than death is probably merciful compared to what they're enduring. This justifies the act if they're fellow monsters. If they're not, then no justification is really required anyway - The prisons are full of our enemies, something productive should be done with them.

2. Take out a section of the Hammer army. They are the enemy, and if it seems a reasonable option, there's hardly any better. Eliminate 300 enemies AND retrieve an ancient artifact in one fell swoop. Sure, they'll be dead, and I'd rather there were another way around it - But that's 300 less people that would probably be trying to kill me and my kind otherwise.

NOT considerable as options:

1. Killing the Kraken. It is monstrous, like me, and therefore I would feel compelled to kill it ONLY under the most necessary circumstances. It may be pissing me off, but when push comes to shove and the Hammers descend, this Kraken could well become an ally. After all, if they've killed dragons, they'll be killing krakens.

2. Forgetting the artifact. This could turn things around for the monstrous races against the Hammer. Therefore of prime importance to recover it.

That's my reaction to the options listed, as a monstrous creature. At least, given what I know - Correct me if some of my assumptions are wrong

[K Man]

Some answers are close to what actually ended up occuring.

The PCs obtained permission from the Sea Lord of Freeport, (Whose bacon they have saved on numerous occasions coincidently.) first as to not cross legal boundaries.

Then they went to the ships and requested to speak with the prisoners, all of whom are lifers and offered them a choice. Die soon under your own power, or die rotting of disease in these ships. Well around 400 prisoners offered to die now, under their own power.

The PCs, wanting to kill two birds with one stone, gave the prisoners that wanted it, a poison that would kill them over the next week and consumately make them a poisonous meal to anyone eating them.

They dragged two ships to the kraken's site and told the beast to have it. The kraken, sensing more then 300 people praised the PCs and dragged the ships to the bottom, consuming some as a snack. (Remember, they were poisoned people:) ) Then the PCs went to the bottom and retrieved the artifact, knowing that they neither palacated the kraken's evil habit since every prisoner dragged out there would die, potentially ended the life of a horrible enemy of the sea and cleared out the Freeport prisons all in one strike.

I thought it was pretty clever... and it seems so simple now, but you should've heard the debate going around.

The artifact?

It was a boggle....you see, The Hammer has a vault where they keep everything magical and what's the best way to fill that vault? Use a creature as a slave that can reach through extra dimensional space and grab objects. He had been staying alive under the seas by stealing water air and food from places he could reach. The Hammer thought he had died in during the sinking of the pirate ship that stole him in the first place, so they just left him alone. The Boggle also supplied the kraken with treasure, food and trinkets, thus why the beast got attached to him.

[Japic]

Another bonus for these foul prisoners, was that the Kraken had requested both male and female prisoners, so that they could breed and grow more food for him. When we approached both sexes with the options, we also told them that they'd be able to spend time with the other sex. Needless to say, that infulenced some of them even more. We had so many volunteers, that we had to leave some behind. 'I get out of life in prison AND I get to get it on with women! I'm in!'

Only problem here was when the Kraken realized our trickery and comes stumbling into Freeport harbor. He's all sickly from the food, and looking to take us down with him. He ended up dead, and we became the saviors of Freeport, yet again. All told, not a bad plan.

[thrawn86]

And that's the true moral of D&D ethics. There's always a way out. Avoid the hard problems, that's my motto.

[K Man]

Alright, next question same campaign.

Background - The PCs had become accustomed to asking this wise elven sage, Ixis for help on numerous occasions. He was a bum, living on the streets of Freeport asking for a few coins and what not, trying to save up enough for passage into the next life.

The PCs had gotten excellent information from him before, he wasn't evil and never mislead them.

Well one day, they go to find Ixis to ask him a question about a lead they had, and rounding the corner, they see something they wish they hadn't.

A mindflayer was almost done consuming the brain of dear old Ixis, his head cracked open like a present in an orphanage.

Well, the PCs were upset, but this particular Mind Flayer was able to retain all the information from those he had consumed. He recognized the PCs through Ixis' brain and offered them an option. He would stay on their ship and help them with advice, including everything Ixis knew and the countless others in his mind, in exchange for one healthy, sentient, intelligent being offered once a month for consumption.

So, have access to the repository of unknown power for one sentient soul a month...or turn it down?

Thoughts?

[Japic]

Goddamn Mindflayer! I blew up half a city block (fireball) when I saw him eating my friend. This debate sucked.

[BluSpecs]

You see what he makes you deal with as a player!

[Wizard]

Wow. I'm for blowing up the city block, myself. Can't exactly leave a mind flayer to the local authorities...

[TheUdjat]

I'd eat the mind flayer's brain.

But seriously. When given a choice between revenge and profit, why not choose both? Beatdown and subdue the mind flayer, take him to the aforementioned ship as a prisoner, and proceed to sever ties to his powers and/or safeguard against them. It should be determined in advance if this is possible. Assuming success, tell the mind flayer that he will help you, or all of you will likely die - But at the very least him. If he absolutely needs a sentient creature - That's what the Hammer folks are for.

Now you have a captive sage. If he fails to deliver accurate info, he can just starve to death - Especially since taking the lot of you down would ensure that. If he proves useful and accomodating, maybe eventually he can be mercifully finished off (naturally, don't tell him this - instead offer freedom). And if you ever feel like taking out aggression for losing Ixis, head to the belly of the boat and kick his ass for a half hour or something.

I might be proposing this solution because I'm in a somewhat dark mood. I'm not sure. But I can't see letting him on board the boat - then he has more power over everyone, no justice is served for Ixis, and you have to pay him tribute. Even if it's Hammer people, it's bound to be a pain.

Ultimately I think I'm still with my first suggested solution, if nothing else works.

[Merovingian]

This one took almost as long for us to agree on as the first question. I'm starting to question however why I am the only voice of good in our party?