First time DM advice/help

[Yakumo]

So I have been getting into more and more of a fantasy mood an I've been considering running a D&D game on the site. My first issue is that I have never run a D&D game before and I'm not sure the best way to go about it. I have been fleshing out an idea for a world/area based somewhat on a "new world" idea that was around during the age of exploration and colonialization.

I've been working on a combined inside out and outside in approach to developing the world. I've also come up with a few bare bones ideas for adventures that I think would be interesting to run and be played. One of my main questions is how do I know when I have everything developed enough and fleshes out enough to run without issues?

[at]

For the most part I feel a DM just needs to have a rough idea how the world works and have enough names/maps/plot notes for the immediate future, along with any pertinent notes regarding long term plot points (if any).

It's useful to have a few things set in terms of limits - notably what 'rules' things like divine intervention, high magic, technology, and other high level characters in the world operate under. Enough to give players a grounding in the world.


I've gone both ways in the past, currently i'm 7 weeks into a game that has a page and a half of DMs notes (and a lot more in my head admittedly but i'm adapting it as I go).
On the other hand a game I ran years back incorporated a time travel sub plot and some of the players actions had to be foreshadowed a year or more before they took them (the trick being to leave indications of events and actions they might taken and then being able to tie them in later without being locked into anything) - lots and lots of notes for that one.


Whatever you feel comfortable with, though too much planning can create a game that won't necessarily fit the players - like designing the tomb of horrors and then getting a party with no mage or rogue

[VemuKhaham]

Sounds like an interesting setting already when I hear the words exploration and new world. If you start this up, I'd really consider playing.

Anyway, as for fleshing out the world, I myself like to go into every little nitpicking detail, but I always find that it really wasn't necessary for running a game in it. Once you've got the big picture (working outside in, deciding on big things like the scarcity of magic, the gods, physics/biology different than on earth, the major powers etc) then really all you need to do is create an idea of the area in which the players will be running about: a map, the latest 'news' in the region, perhaps a few important NPCs.

But really, most of it you can create as you run the game. Like At said, developing too much and you limit your ability to wing things. Just create what you immediately need for the first parts of the campaign, then build around the campaign as you go.

Unless you're like me and have a twisted, impossible hang for perfection in details. Decide whether to build the world for the sake of the world, or for the sake of a single campaign/adventure.

[Yakumo]

This is some of the advice that I want. Thanks a lot, I didn't really think about this all too much. So I was fiddling around with some of the ideas and this is some of what I came up with:

Religion: All human 'civilized' cultures worship one of two gods with variations in practices. Those Gods and practices will be brought over from the 'old world' to the 'new'. Indigenous peoples worship elements and/or nature gods. Creatures worship evil gods or powerful entities (somethings like God-kings). I want Divine intervention to be very uncommon/subtle and questionable. For Divine spells (clerics and Paladins) I would like to make it very faith-based and uncommon. people with divine abilities might be considered saints/prophets and healers would be held in high esteem. At the same time I don't want access to the Divine spells to be common at all and access to the upper echelon of spells would be truly blessed people with direct connections to their gods. I'm thinking like Pope-like and cardinal figures would be great healers but not to the point where people might view them as god, while your missionary and general priests might be more along the lines of low level spells if any at all.

When you say High Magic I think you are talking about Arcane spells, correct me if I'm wrong.
Arcane: Magic is very uncommon and misunderstood. They are seen as dark arts by the more uneducated. Magic abilities are known of and somewhat feared by commoners. The use and learning of the arcane would be strictly controlled by governments/monarchies. Court magicians and wise men may be among officials with the ear of the king. Some of the more powerful nations might even have a small contingent of mages for their armies. Less common but possible would be towns having a practitioner as a resident, under close and suspicious watch of a town guard, and only for the practical use of magic. Gatherings of 3 or more practitioners of the Arcane (not controlled by the government) is strictly forbidden and may be seen as seditious activity. In Native cultures magic is more ritualistic and often linked with their gods. Sorcerors and other innate magic users are even further misunderstood, seen as cursed/heretics/witches; they are even more feared and hated than your normal wizard because the source of their power is a mystery. (as opposed to a wizard's spellbook and study)

Technology: Technology will be present but rare. Engineering is obviously studied by all cultures and the use of normal metals is common. Gunpowder and primitive guns are a closely held secret of the dwarves. I want the dwarves to be a very small population in the world (for reasons as of yet unknown to me) who use their superior weapons as a great equalizer for their small numbers.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'rules that a high level character would operate under', perhaps you could explain that further.

As for the world itself, I want to have an established old world for sake of story/background and the new world to still be a mystery to those from the old world. This should allow me sufficient wiggle room.

I'm worried that my ideas on magic might make the game dull, but I've seen that a no-magic campaign works perfectly fine with Rina.

Perhaps I will use this thread to workshop my ideas until I'm ready for a game (since word seems to be crashing with strange frequency for me).

Any more advice/commentary/criticism is not only welcome but encouraged. Anything that you think might help or make the game more interesting, let me know, I want a whole different feel to the games that are usually run here.

[Jolith]

Yakumo, I really like your concept, sounds intriguing.

Once you get this all fleshed out, know that I'm interested in playing.

As for GMing, I know according to the DMG there are certain things that you should think about when creating a civilization. What purpose does it serve in your game? How big is it? Who lives there? Who governs it? Who else holds power? What are it's defenses? Where do characters go to find what they need? What temples are there? What other organizations? What fantastic elements distinguish it from the ordinary?

[VemuKhaham]

Low magic is never dull. High magic can become dull though. I like your ideas on religion and magic, they really fit my own preferences. Perhaps toy with the idea about the difference between real magic and what is perceived as magic by common folks. If magic is rare, people will be less familiar with it. Perhaps a native culture's shaman is just someone in whose magical abilities people believe, instead of a true wizard; like in the true world. When a king lays his hand on a wounded knight and he becomes whole again after time, let it be magic. Don't let the players know if it's real magic: it might be, or it might just be coincidence. That way, magic remains what it is: inexplicable. Of course, that approach isn't easily combined with the D&D rules approach. If someone among the players plays a magic-class, the magic of it quickly becomes mundane, a rules technicality. But there's no need for the two approaches to exclude each other.

As for fleshing out the further world: I think it will be quite 'easy' then. You don't need to put too much effort into the complex Old World because players won't go there soon most likely (so you can suffice with a bit of general history and the like), and you might decide on making the New World largely unexplored: that way, you can really keep players in the dark about things which do not directly cross their paths. So as you said, sufficient wiggle room.

Keep us informed! I'm intrigued.

[Yakumo]

I've been fleshing things out quite a bit now. One thing I have been considering with Religion and Alignments, I've been wondering about the nature of Good/evil, Law/chaos. I'm thinking about making the world be a lot more shades of Grey. Such as, I one lawful Good deity's followers believe that they have the true path and that another lawful good deity's followers are wrong / are in need of violent conversion, who is in the wrong, are they evil, etc.

So I've drawn a map of the world. Old and New world. Completely Mapped out and divided the old world into Nations (more like Unions, so there is plenty of opportunity for DM and Player intervention on the part of the provinces/states themselves) and Mapped out the only explored part of the New world.

I took Jolith's questions and applied them to the nations and I plan on making. I haven't named them and this is mostly tentative as I explore the idea. I'll start with one of the Nations, post up the info and go further into it.

Tell me what you think/criticism and etc. I'll keep posting background and whatnot until I'm confident in what I have for a game.

Empire: (Name forthcoming)
What purpose does it serve in your game?
The empire is a powerful nation in the northern part of the Old World that seeks to unite the continent under its flag to make a stronger, better world for its people. The state religion preaches the necessity for the strict, unwavering execution of justice – which is decided by the emperor. Liberating nations under the ‘oppressive’ rule of other gods is often an excuse for the empire to expand.
How big is it?
Slightly smaller than the Confederacy
Who lives there?
Humans, Halflings (Enslaved or Rebels), half-orcs (Mercenaries/Merchants/Soldiers from the Island kingdom to the north), elves (Rumored to live in the Eastern Forests), gnomes (Possibly living deep underground in the mountains - no human contact recorded)
Who governs it?
The Emperor
Who else holds power?
Provincial governors, The Church of Phultus, Noble Families
What are it's defenses?
Expansive Fortifications on the Northern and Southern borders, The Western coast has a natural mountain barrier, The empire has a very strong standing and compulsory army that is well equipped and a moderately strong Navy
Where do characters go to find what they need?
The Province capitals are generally the best bet - providing anything that your ordinary large city would.
What temples are there?
Temples to Phultus and there are scattered remains of subjugated people's temples.
What other organizations?
Vast slavery rings, Large criminal underground (Thieves/assassins), and a reputable military officer’s academy
What fantastic elements distinguish it from the ordinary?
The empire contains many rivers, The harshest environments on the continent (Deserts/volcano), but is also the most resource rich as well as the most variety of terrain.

Other info: forthcoming

[at]

Feb 1, 2010 13:51:11 GMT -5 Yakumo said:

When you say High Magic I think you are talking about Arcane spells, correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes and no - there is only so much someone throwing bolts of fire can do in most fantasy settings, but things like teleportation and transmutation fundamentally alter a setting, to say nothing of rampant mind control and the summoning of outsiders.

Feb 1, 2010 13:51:11 GMT -5 Yakumo said:

I'm not sure what you mean by 'rules that a high level character would operate under', perhaps you could explain that further.

Applies more to high magic games than low magic games - basically what are all those other powerful spellcasters doing when generic bad guy #53 tries to swamp the kingdom in zombies.

[Yakumo]

The White Rose Empire - A History and a Legend

No more than a century ago, the northern lands of the continent of Coramur were a rabble of ill-defined 'nations' with greedy lords who taxed their people and showed nothing in return. The lands were under siege by roving bandits and marauders from the islands to the north. The people, frightened and living hand to mouth day in and day out were organized in tightly knit communities, looking for anything and anyone to lead them out of their miserable existence and protect them.

It was during this time that the Emperor, Pholtus' avatar in this world, rose up. The story goes that Maximilian Haven, the Emperor, was a simple town watchman in a little farming community in the center of northern Coramur. While on his way to court the now-empress, he stopped by the river that runs along the capital to pick a white rose. Sniffing the flower, Maximilian was overcome with a from Pholtus himself. In his vision, Maximilian saw a merchant and his family being attacked at a nearby crossroad by bandits - the family was slaughtered. As his head cleared, Maximilian heard cries for help. Dashing to the road, sword in hand, he was confronted with his vision - bandits attacking a merchant family. Catching the bandits by surprise, Maximilian cut them down and saved the family.

Maximilian meditated on what had happened and the state of the world he lived in. Taking his vision as divine providence, he gathered followers from far and wide to overthrow the local lord and unite the province to bring peace to his people. Maximilian and his growing army, at first a ragtag group of men, now true soldiers, began to drive the marauders back and out of Northern Coramur entirely. Uniting his army under a banner with a white rose and silver moon, Maximilian built churches everywhere he went and as the army grew and the followers gathered, he began to perform healings and curing the sick. As he united the central and eastern part of the empire, the Church of Pholtus had declared Maximilian a living saint.

Peace was ever on the horizon for the fledgling empire. The western edge of the empire, covered with mountains and its rolling foothills and plains were seen as something of a blight to the empire. They were inhabited by non-humans who seemed to live in harmony with the land and never want for food or resources and never traded with the empire. This Maximilian could not abide, he declared that Pholtus had come to him in a dream and told him that non-humans were created for human utility alone, that non-human kingdoms were an abomination and a direct affront to Pholtus' vision. And so war came to the empire once again. Maximilian's forces marched first on the Halflings of the plains. Taken quite by surprised and ill-prepared for a war, the Halflings surrendered to minimize the loss of life. What they kept in life, they Halflings lost in freedom as they were turned into a slave state for the Empire. They were made to work farms to feed the war effort, construct war-machines, and sold to rich families as servants and maids.

The Dwarven kingdom was more prepared, but they did not last much longer. When an easy victory was not assured the Empire struck with ferocity and hate. Fueling their own war efforts, the Empire called on the island kingdom to the north. Their fierce warriors, filled with promises of riches and fueled by an ancestral hatred of dwarves, laid into the resisting kingdom. The combine might of the two forces overcame the dwarves' superior technology. The dwarves lost hundreds of clans in the war and finally abandoned all but the smallest portion of their land in the far reaches of the empire. Casualties were high and the dwarven population would never recover. The empire too no prisoners, and killed every man, woman and child they came across to quell resistance.

The Dwarven lands conquered to their satisfaction, Maximilian was crowned Emperor of the White Rose Empire for his extreme faith in Pholtus and uniting the Empire's lands in his name. The people of the empire have grown xenophobic and view even the civilized nations as strange and barbaric, but otherwise peace has reigned in the Kingdom for decades, save for the occasional border clash with the heathen confederacy to the south.

[Japic]

You want my advice? I'll give it to you from both my perspective and KMan's.

Get a premise for the beginning of the game and how you want the general direction to go. Throw down your first encounter or situation for the PCs to conquer... and kiss your plot goodbye.



In all reality that is really the way it works out. You'll find yourself faced with a situation you'd never thought you would because of your players. This is where a loose outline and freedom to wiggle come in to play. They will be your best friends. Remember to stay loose, have fun and let it roll. You never know where you'll end up or how your players will get there. If you plan for every contingency it'll become a railroad adventure with no freedom of choice for a player. They lose fun, you lose players. Keep it loose and you'll be happy with the results.

In short; expect the unexpected and learn to roll with the punches. Even if you never planned for it.

[Yakumo]

That's great advice Japic, thank you. I think what I plan on doing is getting a barebones idea of what every nation is about (there are only 4), what's going on in the world at the moment, And get an idea of where I would like to see the campaign go. After that, I've already started to make a list of problems going on in the world, smaller things that low-level pc's could handle (presumably).

I was thinking of taking a page from Shakes' Evil game and make the game more character driven, i.e. drop the characters in the world with their story and let them work their way to what it is they want to do in the world. I was thinking about doing it this way simply because the way I see the world in my head is that there is a lot of hate, confusion and fear and I'm not going to be one to force everyone to come from one nation to be okay with eachother has party members. If one player is from the White Rose Empire and is very religious, well perhaps he would be less inclined to work with a dwarf character, or at least be very suspicious of him.

So I probably shouldn't develop my 'endgame' ideas beyond what they are and maybe how they influence the world that the players are in?

Also I just realized I left out how the world would treat psionics. I have to think on that one, but I'm thinking people would see them as cursed.

[Japic]

Yah, I wouldn't worry too much about what will happen in the future, so long as you have a general idea of what they need to face to get toward your end game scenario. If the end game is to confront some BBEG, then so long as you can create new/different paths that lead to him, you'll be fine.

KMan and I talked about this topic extensively when I first started DMing. He told me that when he runs games on here, he has a general idea of whats to be accomplished. But never gets his heart too set on certain ideas. When characters like Romar in the original BOYD game decided to go rogue and turn against the world, he never saw it coming, but rolled with it just the same to provide the story arc that the character needed. In that same game when Yuri offered himself up to vampirism, he never expected it, but rolled on. Both provided some very interesting plot points, both in ways the DM never expected he'd have to deal with. But for story's sake they had their fun and gave us all a good show.

He was able to steer everyone toward the same goals thankfully and when the game ended everyone was satisfied with the results. So much so that they opted for a sequel in GFYD. Where Romar's decisions of the past were now a driving force for the new campaign. All because he let it roll and kept it loose.

Have fun and you'll be happy with the result; I promise.

[Yakumo]

Alright, sounds good. I have a good idea of where I'd like the game to go and I'm interested in how the players will cope with the scenario as I want it to be rather open-ended.

Aside from a few details here and there I have a good idea of the who's who in the world and what's going on. I'll have to organize it all and come up with a good world description + hook to get players in and maybe I'll be opening this game up sooner than I thought.

Let me know if you are interested ahead of time, I think I'll be opening it for 4-5 players, who won't necessarily be starting in the same place (although I'm sure that might not be ideal for a DM, but shakes and vemu seem to work with it well).

[Rojito]

... i've been watching this thread... i cant help myself i am interested, Vemu's game is just... amazing. Shakes IGTBE was an amazing game i just couldn't keep up with it. and of course the Darksun campaign is amazingly addictive as well. All these are DnD campaigns with a slight hint of difference from the normal style, kinda like this one sounds, i dont think i could resist this... not to mention its low magic, i've never been good with magic, i prefer less of it lol

[VemuKhaham]

I'm really interested, and if you'll have me, I'll join when the call for players comes.

Be careful though with the loose policy on character building. Character driven stories sound great but are really hard to manage. The eternal question of what to do when two players just don't get along is raised, and you might end up with many parallel stories at the same time, which is really like DMing multiple games: it takes a lot of effort. Now that I'm running Rina with multiple story lines at once, I know even better that it was really a gift of time and effort by DMs like Kman to allow me 'to go rogue', as Japic said. Really the best way of handling it so far, as I've seen, is with Shards. Somehow TheUdjat manages to keep us all together in a reasonably believable way, even though hardly any of us want to stick with the others. It creates a real dramatic tension.

But I will always think that, if you give it that extra effort, the best games are character-driven and allow for all thinkable relations between PCs. That also means players will need to make an extra effort. It's hard to make a completely character-driven game when characters don't come up with things. And on the other hand, with the DM controlling everything but the players, it's always a fact that players don't control their own characters. Character freedom is always an illusion, cause there is no real world they live in, they just respond to what the DM throws at them. Still, it can be a really obvious illusion or a really good one. What I'm trying to say is: if you want you're characters to make the story, they will need to be able and to be allowed to make assumptions about the world you've put them in.

Example: character wants to become rich.
The DM can simply have a guy walk up to him and say: 'psst, you wanna make some serious money?'
Or the DM can do nothing, but then allow the player to say: 'my character goes to the city bank to rob it.'
Now, the player has created a city bank, not the DM. The DM can only say whether there is such a bank, and that decision is really what it all boils down to when you talk of character-driven.

It's really giving up the DM privilege of soul authority of what exists within the DM's created world.

And that really minuscule line between what the DM offers and what the player offers is a continuous interaction.

Now, a city bank might seem like a relatively uninteresting case, but imagine a player wanting his character to come from some kingdom of his own design, think up an artifact that he alone knows of and really wants to go and get, now THAT's character-driven to the full. All the DM will then do is facilitate the players' wishes.

So perhaps, and now I'm getting to the idea that sparked this abominable post: what if, instead of a general background, you demand that each player, or several players, write a very concrete ambition within their character sheets. The fun part of the role of the DM of such a game would be to bring these ambitions together at one point or another in the story.

I've seen ambitions written within backgrounds but usually playing a secondary role to the DM's plot, as that was (totally legitimately) what the intention of the game was. But imagine one player writing he wants to get some artifact, another player that he wants to murder some king for some reason, and yet another that he wants to live a peaceful existence on his family farm. All the DM has to do, is have the players drag each other along: the guy wanting to get the artifact discovers it is buried on the farmland of the farmer, when he gets it, the evil king comes in with the cavalry and takes the artifact and in the battle, the farmer's family suffers collateral damage, etc. They meet the guy who wants to kill the king, and decide they all would like to kill the king. There you have it: a campaign. Character-driven too, cause it wasn't the DM who offered the players leads to develop ambitions, it was exactly the other way around: the players offered the DM a storyline that he himself can still of course to a huge degree manipulate. That would be a campaign I'd love to run some day, or play in.

Just a possible reflection on character-driven campaigns you can ignore or think about. It all depends on your intention with this game. If you already have a real cool plot thought out, then you probably won't be wanting to let it go, cause that's why you want to DM the game. I know that's how it often works for me. But if you're still beginning from scratch, consider before you build the campaign what method you're going to use to get it. And I really like the things you've said about your approach to this game, so that's why I started with this rant: to encourage you to go on while keeping in mind all the options that this approach opens up.

[VemuKhaham]

Damn, I just saw you already posted a campaign post! You hit the nail right on the head, it's exactly what I was writing all this time about, haha!

Lol, I'm going to leave my ridiculous post up so you know that I like what you're doing!