Bring out Your Dead Discussion

[Hero]

VemuKhaham said:

When I red this, my first thought was to make haste for Ravenshead too. But I think even if we would use all the horses, the enemy would still catch up on us, and we would be even more defenseless there in the open with children etc with us. That way, we would walk into a trap. Not an option to me.

To get more reinforcements as fast as possible would be wise, even if they would arrive late, maybe they can defeat the force afterwards and recapture the hold.

I say we must do this and stay right were we are, defending the keep with every single man, capable or not, woman and the older children. (this starts to sound like helm's deep, if you know of it...)

That blackpowder seems useful, sad thing we only have two barrels...

If we hold the keep for two or less days (as long as a quick ride might take to ravenshead and back) then we have succeeded...

That's all I can think of right now. If no-one volunteers, I will get reinforcements. I travel light and Huna is a fine steed.

okay, i'm for staying and fighting then.... I like the blackpower/oil trap idea. I'd also lobby strongly for a hit and run assault on their camp tonight.

and I think you ARE the best choice to go for reinforcements - the person we send HAS to get through and you have the best chance of sneaking around enemy patrols or killing any skirmishers you run into..... if you ride for reinforcements you should also take a second or even a third horse so you can ride one mount until it is exhausted and then switch to the other.

[VemuKhaham]

I guess my 'ideas' have grown a bit old before I could post them .

The strategy you gave, Fangor, seems a good one. Blessing the well's water is indeed a great advantage for us to any undead.

The most important thing right now, like you did well with your trap, is to panic our enemies and make them think we have the resources and power to stand. The fire will do this for certain.

But one barrel and one explosion, even if fueled with fire and oil, will not be sufficient. There are 1500 of them around (assuming they will not attack before sunrise) and possibly more if they keep capturing the dead. I'm no chemist, but wouldn't it be wise to divide the gunpowder we have among more barrels. Maybe the power of the explosion would lessen, but the mayhem all around would certainly be more efficient AND more scary for those pesky goblins.

[Fangor the Fierce]

I agree with sending one of us to get reinforcements. I also like the hit and run tactic....and while we are heading to the enemy tonight, we could be also setting the trap behind us....

I say we find a small group, attack as quickly as possible, hopefully finding a leader or some sort of captain and when we take him out, the rest should be in a frantic enough state that we can run back to the keep.

If they pursue, then we can have the people in the keep ready with arrows, to give us some cover while running back... we would need to go through the back way, as lowering the gate would be too risky... We would have to make sure that whoever chases us, dies, so that they won't go back and let the others know of the rear entrance...

If the keep falls, the next place for that gunpowder barrel would be the courtyard, setting it near the center, to be able to get the most damage, yet keeping the gate intact for the reinforcements to use later on...IF THEY COME!

Putting ourselves into a place that we could defend with only one side threatening us is a greater advantage, as we would not be flanked.

We really need a priest of some sorts, to bless a well....then the kids could stay on the higher ground if the keep was entered, and douse the enemy below with pails of holy water...

What other things do we have that are available? As far as party items? I have Ride +10, Handle animal +5, a riding dog, for another attacker, shovel, 4 potions cure light wounds, small mirror for signaling for the clearing back to the keep if needed....

[K Man]

In response to some questions. There are also standard supplies not listed, such as timber for building, nails and raw metal for the smith etc...

Consider these when thinking of a plan. Also, Sir Mordrid has something to say...

Read it...

[Fangor the Fierce]

I was also thinking of the scrapnel thing. If we could find smaller barrels, to make more 'bombs', then that would help. We could wrap rope around the barrels, laced with nails, etc, and when it explodes, the rope will burst, sending nails and scrapnel everywhere. Arrow tips would also be good. What supplies does the smith have?

We are all thinking of fighting, but not all of us can fight. The elderly and the children will have to be given tasks. I was looking at the mpas, and noticed the the upper area is much bette for defending, as we have cover, height advantage, and limited entryways. If for some reason the enemy breaks through, then we should get to higher ground, and defend from there. I was thinking of limiting the higher ground by collapsing the walkways to certain areas. We could all hold up in the most defendable area, and have it stocked with all the provisions. That would be the children and elderly jobs. Getting as much of the supplies upstairs. The trap doors or stairs could have rocks, furniture, whatever at the top, ready to be thrown down the stairs to block the entry or kill any others coming upstairs...

And what did Mordrid say??? I didn't see anything

[BluSpecs]

Hello ..... Forgotten priest here! ;D


I can start cranking out some holy hater from the well


I agree. we should make a pre-emptive night strike on them. It could be very effective.


Hero, I was refering to us snaeking out and laeving all of the innocents to die... thats what I infered General was talking about.

[Fangor the Fierce]

Then start cranking out that holy water. Use every container that we can spare to hold it. The horses feed bags could also hold water, and get the children to start moving all the supplies upstairs.

The containers of holy water should be at the walkways and towers for use when the enemy gets at the walls. We really need to know what kind of weapons they have, and plan accordingly. Perhaps setting some of those scrapnel bombs in their camp, and when the surprise attack comes, we set them off, hopefully killing many. Setting their camps afire would also be nice....Pyromaniac!!!

Are the horses warhorses? If so, then we could use the best riders and mount up a small cavalry behind the keep at the rear. Let the others sneak into the enemy camp, set their traps, bombs, whatever, and when they flee towards the rear, the cavalry could overrun the few enemy tailing them. Then they could re-enter the keep and finish the fortifications. Remember, warhorses are also warriors...

[TheUdjat]

Some of my thoughts:

1. We should stay and defend.
2. Reinforcements are a grand idea.
3. We should have a systematic and very thoroughly planned tactic, which takes into account the sacrifices we will need to make.
4. We should not do a pre-emptive raid, in my opinion, as we should salvage every able-bodied person to make preparations as quickly a possible. Furthermore, we could not afford any losses on such a raid.
5. We need to focus on the morale issue. A lot. Troops fight better with morale, and enemy troops fight worse without it. Not all of them are undead, and even the undead need someone to guide them. There's bound to be a commander or several - Mention was made of orc commanders. They should be singled out, as horde-creatures like kobolds and goblins are followers, not leaders.
6. Fire is going to be our friend in this battle, but we have to be very careful with it.

In more specifics about the defense of the hold, I think we should have a specified system of retreat. We will not retreat entirely from the hold, ofcourse, but we have 3 'zones' we can close off or isolate as we need, and this is a tactic we should definitely employ. For instance, the forces can break through into the courtyard, but then have to cut their way into the keep, and then into the heart of the hold, where people are living (besides barracks/temple). If need be, we should be prepared to drop back as necessary in a disciplined and tactical manner, so as not to panic.

I also think a preliminary trap is a good idea. I like the ideas of shrapnel bombs and various other traps in the fields, or the elevated road leading to the gates. They will be expecting this, ofcourse, but any disruption on the outside will slow them down. If we could make a net system or something to tangle their feet, that'd be even better. Some, I'm sure, would simply be trampled to death. But we should also have a big trap, and here's what I have in mind:

First of all, we use our timber and various other supplies to build a new gate. This is a false gate. It should look as much like the current as possible, but is allowed to be weaker if necessary. In this way, we are picking their point of entry. If the hordes can get in through the gate first (as opposed to over the walls or through them), then we know where they'll be coming from and can handle them accordingly. We raise the actual gate, and put the false one in its place. When they break through, we allow a healthy sum through, then close the gate on them, trapping those ones let through inside. Inside, we can have oil on the ground, or even hay soaked in oil covering the ground. A disguised powder keg could be a nice touch, too. All we'd need to do is drop a fire arrow (or alchemist's fire) ANYWHERE on the courtyard ground to send it up and flames - and, consequently, ignite the powder keg. Anyone left is easily cleaned up by archers on the scaffolds.

We should save plenty of oil to be dropped over the sides, as well. No doubt the enemy will try ladders and other siege techniques to get in. Hopefully no catapults or ballistae, or we'll be in really bad shape having to worry about 'new doors'. We can set up arrow traps with pre-set crossbows or otherwise, to aid us if we need to fall back to new places. Spear traps are good, too. I espect we'll wind up with a number of weapons not in use by the troops, but we should take careful stock of this.

My plans clearly aren't fully developed, but I'm expecting input from all of you that will tweak things into place. Or, you know, discard the ideas entirely. Anyway, there's some fuel for thought.

[Fangor the Fierce]

Does this mean we should go to the war room? How about renaming this thread the War Room, lol. ;D

[VemuKhaham]

An attack on the enemy is not a good idea in my opinion. If they would be with a hundred, even a couple of hundreds, but with much more then a thousand of darkvisionequiped little monsters we would never have any surprising benefit: they have plenty of guards down there, and probably arms scattered all around the place. It will be raining arrows there, most of the attackers would fall. Retreat would be dangerous, as followers will detect our secret backdoor and the gate is too dangerous to lower. Killing all followers is not possible; there will always be the little kobold sneaking around and betray our backdoor. They are at an advantage down there, we have our advantage up here in the hold. We must use it. Every man here in the hold has more value then there in their territory.
Besides; killing 50 (if we could achieve that) is nothing when comparing our losses with our full army and their losses with their full army. It is not a good idea in my opinion, but if we do insist on it, it must be a mounted attack and Romar couldn't refuse to partake (if he isn't needed to get reinforcements, to which he wouldn't object either if no-one wants Mordrid to do it).

The shrapnel is a good thing too. Children throwing down the holy water is a smart thing. I would suggest the priest of the temple of pelor could better use his spells; you might need them more later, as you are a warrior too, bluspecs.

[TheUdjat]

Couple additional points:

- I think defending from the upper level is a bad idea. The enemy could always just destroy the hold from below, and we'd all die. Chances are they have some sort of siege equipment, like rams and such. They could tear us apart, as opposed to climbing up after us.

- As opposed to a raid, why not just send a small group of stealthies to go investigate what the enemy has? Information would be more valuable than a raid, I think, especially given time constraints.

[Japic]

Ahem: My apologies, I posted my idea to the stroy, instead of discussing it here. I was reading top to bottom, so hadn't reached this discussion yet. Turns out I'm a little slow and redundant. Sorry guys.

If we use the black powder in smaller doses then we could spread it around instead of blowing it all at once ( or twice) Having 20 smaller bombs, vs 2 larger ones.

As for the holy water, great idea. He did say their was a priest and his acolytes. They could prolly handle the holy water saving BluSpecs the effort.

Having the old and young dump buckets of the water is a good idea too.

What about vials? Are there vials available in the keep? If so, fill them with holy water, tie them to an arrowhead and shoot undead enemies with them. It gets some range, incase they are trying to stay away.


I’m not sure that heading outside of the keep is a very good idea for any of us, except Mordrid. Let him go if he wishes it. He’s the one that didn’t bring the reinforcements he should have to begin with. Give him half a chance to redeem himself.


The elderly and children should also be used as lookouts for the rest of the keep; the areas that aren’t under siege. There is no use putting a good soldier to watch an empty field. However a few unskilled could keep a lookout and alert the soldiers if the enemy tries approaching from more than one angle.

Using timber we need to seal up the back door good and tight (after Mordrid leaves if we let him).

Just a few thoughts. More to come.

[Fangor the Fierce]

I hate to do it, but we should really get the ideas, get them to Mordrid and the Duke, and let them present the plans to the troops, rallying them as they see that even though they are outnumbered, the plans to stay alive and await the reinforcements are a fluid and valid plan. The raid is a bit rash, and I would agree only to go to the fields and set the scrapnel traps.

With having to rally the troops, let the Duke and Mordrid give the plans, and when addressed to us all, along with the troops, we should be the first to be 'rallied' and with our apparent morale increase, the troops should begin to feel that we can outlive the enemy and survive this siege.

[Fangor the Fierce]

The smith, I would like to know his ideas on what contraptions he can make, etc... What supplies doe she keep and is there anything he has been 'hiding' for a special occassion? The priest and the acolytes should take care of the wells and holy water. What other things are there in this keep that we may be forgetting???

[Fangor the Fierce]

I hate to post so much, but ideas keep jumping forth and with my low attention span, I need to write them down or forget them...

Do we have any druids or rangers with animal companions that can fly? We can send them around the area, and if they sense any danger, other than the area that we know the enemy is at, then we should plan accordingly.

I agree with not sending out the raid party, but sending out a scout party instead. We really need to know what the enemy has and any possible plans they may be setting up.

[VemuKhaham]

Fangor, even though I do not quite get your two-gatesidea, I think I second gate would not help, as I'm sure the enemy now knows the general lay-out of our keep after two days of 'siege', and they wouldn't buy the trick.

Spear- and spike traps are indeed a good idea. Maybe we can even lay one all through the main gate, a deep gap in the entrance covered with something. Spears in it, imagine the pushing hordes in the entrance: it would possibly buy us great time, or am I wrong? If we would desire to exit te keep, it would be unwise anyway to go through this gate, so the backdoor would be handy. The main gate should be just one big dead-road.

[K Man]

- The priest of the temple is dead...fell in the first attack.


Just had to add.

[Fangor the Fierce]

Can his acolytes bless the water and make holy water?

[TheUdjat]

VemuKhaham said:

Fangor, even though I do not quite get your two-gatesidea, I think I second gate would not help, as I'm sure the enemy now knows the general lay-out of our keep after two days of 'siege', and they wouldn't buy the trick.

It's actually my idea. I guess I might be thinking more of a portcullis than a gate. I'm not sure of Freehold's actual setup. But assuming there is a portcullis that drops down (raised up, dropped down, very heavy, etc), then we could raise it up before the battle and raise up a false one in its place. Same spot, so there should be no layout confusion for the enemy. It's simply to lead the enemy into believing they destroy the gate, let them flood in, then close it behind 'em. Then, ambush.

Clear yet, or still pretty confusing?

Also, about spear traps - We should use sharpened sticks instead, it occurred to me. We don't have that many spears to spare, especially if we decide to use a phalanx-style tactic for fighting the enemy in hand-to-hand, which I think would be a good idea. Take the able-bodied men and equip them with target shields and shortswords, and let trained warriors behind them use longspears. Nice wall of points and shields. Exceptionally useful for falling back in an organized fashion, as well.

[BluSpecs]

I'll leave the strategary (as Bush would say ;D) to you guys.

I'll start blessing a bit, but we don't know how many undead there actualy are.

They could be all goblinoids for all we know.

Scouting party = Good