Bring out Your Dead Discussion

[Hero]

I'm starting to like the idea of sending ina spy rather than a raiding party. Where IS that halfling? ;D

[Japic]

Let's get the scouting party out ASAP. Any animal companions would be useful for gathering information too.

KMan, is the floor of the courtyard (area 2) flagstone, granite blocks, bare dirt? If it's just dirt or flagstones, then a pit would be advisable. Let's get the common men digging, and make certain that the soldier types are familiar with battle formations (phalanx or whatnot).

Someone mentioned falling back in stages if need be. Lets make sure that the courtyard is able to be lost, and make the Inner Keep (area 3) very defensible.

Vemu, as for the gate, as stated in the description of area one: "There is a small hill and gap between the gatehouse, roughly twenty feet in length. The bottom of the gate itself is fifteen feet up from the ground below, making it difficult to get into the hold without the gate down." Basically if the gate (drawbridge) is up then they need to replace it with another bridge to even think about battering at the door. We should plant a bomb there that can be shot to blow down their bridge.


Last point (for now): Most soldiers should be on top of the walls to defend with bows until we are breached. Use some of the rope that we have to create a fast way for those on the ramparts to join those below. (Think like a firemens pole. It allows you to get down fast.) In this case they would just be lengths of rope that can be drawn back up or cut loose should the Coutyard/Inner Keep be breached.

[K Man]

Again...adding clarification.

Freehold sits atop a hill, the only way to access it with heavy machinery would be from the font gate. The hill is too steep for siege machinery to climb, but that doesn't mean that strong ballistae couldn't knock out the walls.

Also, the front gate is a portcullis with a drawbridge that drops out the raised hill before the hold. The bridge is up and portcullis is down, making a 'double' thick defended entrance.

Japic - Dirt floor in Area 2

[sonnetinkinston]

Okay, I'm no strategist. That much is obvious. And I don't have an animal companion yet.

However, I do have a knowledge of the Orcish language, not too bad levels in hide, skill, and listen checks, though not as high as Newt's. I also have low-light vision.

I think my first stop is to ask good ol' Pelor for a favor. Considering my mom was doing him a favor when she died. Not that it'll do any good, but hey? It's worth a shot.

I do agree someone swift, light, and able to hide to get out of the camp, able to gain audience witht the king, and to convince him that Mordrid was slightly in error when he asked for his troops.

Everyone leaving is out of the question, since there is no way we could get the whole 94 people, including the children and 12 venerable adults, out unscathed. And the two paladin's would have issues if we tried to leave any of those behind, I'm sure.

I'm open to whatever the group decides, and the usually moody Sehanine is in battle mode now. Translated, that means easy to get along with unless you're on the other side, in which case you better stick you head between you knees and kiss your ass goodbye.

I would also suggest that we check the outer walls of the keep for any weaknesses incurred over the course of the siege. I'm not sure what skills the dwarves may have, but we may need them soon.

Just wondering, though, is anyone else getting a picture of Helm's Deep here? (Sorry, Vemu, didn't see you'd already mentioned that.)

[VemuKhaham]

It's actually my idea

Sorry, theudjat, I should've known that. my apologies.

Just wondering, though, is anyone else getting a picture of Helm's Deep here?

Yeah, I mentioned that before. The children having to throw rocks fighting with the rest of the soldiers. We having to hold until reinforcements will arrive. Greatly outnumbered. Great keep. Only where is that bloody mountain when you need it?!?
I guess we'll have to be satisfied with a climbable hill...

Anyway, getting some info to clear up my vision of the hill and gate etc, I imagined something; if the only real way to the gates is that elevated hill, then is it possible to roll barrels down, loaded with heavy stuff, like the sand we dig up for the pits, or perhaps even the gunpowder, when the little weaklings try to march to the gate. Or would the barrels just loose track or something? Anyway, that would crush them...

Furthermore; some more info on what Romar would do:

- scouting would still be risky with 1500 listen checks (i know that's an exaggeration), but it could be worth it. Romar knows how to hide in the wild, and if he would be needed, yes then he would volunteer. I have no animal companion yet.
- getting reinforcements is a must. If Mordrid is not allowed, then he would volunteer, as his first priority. He has a light strong warhorse, in his eyes the fastest there are, and he travels light. Romar knows how to avoid eyes' and ears' attention.
- If Romar isn't needed in one of these activities, he will do whatever he is told to do.

Now where do you need me? What will be the course of action. I think we should now start to work on some kind of conclusion, shouldn't we?

[Hero]

Well then here's what I think at this point:

Explosives/oil: We should rig the trap discussed earlier in the area leading up to the gate. That's where they are mostly likely to send a bunch of troops in a mass. Dig a shallow trench, put the oil in it, cover the top with hay, put the barrels of black powder at both ends. We'd of course not put the barrels in range of the gate nor in a way that they overlap each other. I don't want to leave a barrel of black powder in the keep as just a bit of stray burning pitch lobbed by the bad guys could take several of us out. No, we should use it all in one or two big blasts to take out as many bad guys as possible on the front end. Put the shrapnel in the barrels while we're at it.

Riders: Send Mordred AND Romar. Don't send them together but rather send one out and then an hour later send another by a slightly different path. Give them each two horsess so they can change when one horse gets tired. We have to get word to Ravenshead and we have to get reinforcements, otherwise, we're toast. That's why we can spare two people to do this.

Yes, we need to send the sneakiest of us WITH knowledge of orc, goblin or kobold out to scout.

And we DO need to get moral up. Time for speech I think.

[sonnetinkinston]

I think we should leave that job to you... ;D
(hey, I'm working on the bonding here... )

[K Man]

Here's what I think at this point...

...You should all submit to 'The Master'!! Becoming his willing slaves!!!

*Just Kidding*

I love all the ideas that have come out, seriously, it's like you guys have planned for sieges your whole life.

So I have a group leaving the keep and planting the powder barrels, seperated from each other, with shallow trenches of oil as catalysts, on either side of the trail to the main gate. Away from the keep as to not damage it in the blasts.

I have the kids and elderly, moving supplies and things to a safe place and 'holing' up, so to speak, for when the battle starts.

I have Mordrid and possibly (Newt?) exiting simultaneously, Mordrid riding hard for Ravenshead and Newt heading for the enemy camp for recon. Romar will exit the Freehold an hour after Mordrid and Newt, heading on different path to Ravenshead.

I have the idea of possibly breaking the powder kegs into smaller, shrapnel bombs and plating those, with some in reserve for the attack. (Perhaps only plant one barrel outside the keep as it is a 30 ft. radius, and break the other into smaller bombs.)

I have a speech from one of you, for inspiration to the duke at least. Any other morale building ideas?

Anything else you guys want to decide? Placement of troops? Division of supplies (Arrows etc)?

I'll go on when we're all agreeing and ready for the fight.

[TheUdjat]

Alright, ladies and gents. I think it's time to divide and conquer. My suggestion is that we split into smaller groups to work on some of the specifics here - A group to plan/carry out the scouting mission, a group to take care of trasp and defenses, a group to take care of morale, and Romar, who will be handling reinforcements (with or without Mordrid). And any other things that come to mind as I write.

Here's my suggestions:

Scouting Mission:
Newton - He has the best sneaking capabilities. Don't know what languages he's familiar with, but he's bound to be useful.
Sehanine - She's elven (low light vision), and she's a ranger. No brainer. As an added plus, she can detect undead. Valuable asset for determining how many there are.

They should be all we need, as the other ranger is on the reinforcement operation.

Reinforcements:
Romar - Great rider (our best?). He's also got ranger skills as an added plus.
Mordrid(?) - I include him as an important NPC. Are we sending him along on this trip? If not, he ought to be dealing with...

Morale:
Duke Tevin - He'll obviously need to be involved in some fashion
Callian - Great diplomacy, great charisma, and what soldier doesn't like a paladin?
Hero - Already quite involved with the 'higher ups', so her presence is fitting here. Also a paladin, and good diplomacy rating.

Traps/Defenses:
Krysta - Expert warrior, very good about preparation suggestions.
Garor - Our cleric, for handling the blessings of water and such.
Girud - He's a bloody half-giant. But also good suggestions
Hero (when not dealing with morale) - Also involved in the planning process
Caelith - I think I'd be best suited to helping here. Also, Knowledge: Architecture/Engineering doesn't hurt.

I suggested the above mostly based on who's been talking most in this thread. Romar was left out due to riding obligations. But the above five seem to have contributed most of the defense tactics, so we should settle down and focus on getting all of that in place.

Others:
Yuri - Has used some psionic powers. I recommend resting. Don't know what else to do with the psion.
Balin - Fierce warrior. Put him side-by-side and/or in charge of a group of soldiers. He'll inspire by example, I should think. Ground level, though, as I don't see much ranged proficiency.
Galdren - Much like Balin. He's a focused warrior, and would be good inspiration. More useful on the battlements than Balin, as he has better ranged to-hit. Possibly could help with morale (good diplomacy). Another suggestion for Galdren: Guide the children/vulnerable folk into being useful somehow. Just a stab in the dark, but the idea just occurred to me. Yuri could also do this.

Any suggestions to this list? I'm just trying to get the ball rolling.

[Jevva]

Personally, I'm extremely against a night raid, mostly because undead don't sleep, so they'd be a lot readier than, say, a human enemy would be. This would make it fairly difficult to penetrate their camp and reach any commander they might have, who would likely be in the center of the camp and extremely inaccessible.

I like the idea about falling back to the upper levels, but isn't it possible for them to just burn us out? I'm sure they could easily shoot some fire arrows through the windows and such or something like that. But yeah, as I see it, the only option we have is to hold out and try to weather the storm. I'm not exactly the greatest tactician, though, so I'll leave the whole placement of bombs and such to you guys.

[GeneralMHB]

OK, it's time for the silent psion to speek up. Here's my whole theory on this (Keep in mind, this is me personally speeking, not Yuri):

On the topic on what I need to do: I can sum this up in one word: SLEEP! Give me eight hours of rest, or put me in a peaceful enviornment (IE: no noise, calming, relaxing place) and you'll have a capable psion on your hands. Put me in a place where range matters. If these jokers get to me, that's ok: (AC 23 anyone? ;D )

On the subject of Mordrid: Send his sorry butt over to Ravenshead to get the men. He has some say-so because he's the king's nephew. Sending anyone else probably won't get his attention as quickly. Sending Romar beside him is not a bad idea either. He could always use a skilled rider and fighter.

On the subject of defending the Freehold: When I see what's going on here, I'm thinking Helm's Deep all over again (except no reenforcements are coming). There's only two main entrances to this place as I can tell: The front door and the hidden one in the back (unless I missed something). They could make another one by tunneling under the castle or find the hidden one in the back. We have enough equipment to last us for awhile, just not the man-power.

There's gonna be one problem with the reinforcements. We have two days minimum to hold them off: one day for the messengers to get there, the other to get the army here, maybe longer depending on how long it takes Strumguard to muster up an army. It may take shorter if the messengers can ride fast enough.

On the subject of man-power: It's quite possible for these guys to just surround the castle and come in on all sides, then were screwed. One hundred and nine people scattered around the castle aren't gonna hold off a thousand and five hundred goblins/kobalds/undead coming in from all sides.

The traps are an excellent idea and we should continue with that.

Another question is when are these guys gonna strike? If anywhere from from now till dawn, then we may have a bit of trouble on our hands. If they wait till morning, we have a chance, given the time for the riders to get help.

But it all boils down to what you guys wanna do. I'm just chippin in my two cents here.

[BluSpecs]

Udjat's plan sounds good to me.

Garor's not much for charisma so setting up traps and such will work fine for him.

[Hero]

I'll get to work on that speech and post in chatracter tonight

[Fangor the Fierce]

I don't know, but the sunlight would harm the orcs I believe. They are creatures that do not like bright lights...I am thinking they might try a raid at night....scary thought, but somone had to say it...

The traps are a nice touch. with having to defend all the sides of the keep, it would be disasterous. We need to make sure we control their attack points. If we could dig up enough trenches in weak spots on the outer perimeter, we could then fill it with flamable stuff, like wood, hay, whatever....as far as them attacking from all around, I say use the troops to start digging the trenches, about 10 feet wide, at least 5 foot deep, if possible. That way, when the enemy comes, and have ladders, they might not be long enough to meet the top of the walls, and as they pour forth, we could ignite the trench from the rear gate, to set the whole perimeter on fire. The walls should withstand it, as they are made of stone. If this would cause the keep to catch fire, then scratch the idea.

Since the keep is on a hill, then as pointed out before, gravity is on our side. The bales of hay can be molded into round bales, to roll. When the enemy is near, then 'roll' the bales off the walls, lighting them on fire, and watch the bowling pins fall.

Setting up a perimeter of spikes would also slow the enemy down, making them choose their paths wisely. Make it to where the spikes are all around, save for the front entrance. They would think it the easiest route, and then have the main force aimed at this one huge mass of enemy troops.

10 Tower Shields....sounds like a chance for this smith to somehow bind them together, forming a wall of one solid metal, 5 shields wide, (or however wide the main gate is) and 2 shields high with an area/slit opening for spears to stick out or arrows to be fired from. That can be a frontal shield, for the withdraw if the enemy enters the keep.

Are there any carts in this keep? I was hoping to fasten the shields to the cart, since it has wheels, and use it as a wheelable shield. I know, you are wondering about the enemy force overpowering it? Don't worry, I say use the fake door idea as well, allowing only a certain amount of enemy troops in, and when we let down the real door or porticulus, use this rolling spiked shield to ram into the enemy, puching them back. The wheels would have notches, at a certain angle, to where when rolled forward, the lever that is fastened to the side of the cart allows it to roll freely. If the cart is pushed backwards, the lever slides in place, becoming an unrollable cart.

The rest of the enemy trapped between the porticulus and the gate, can be killed by stoning them from above. The kids can be pushing over rocks along the edge of the walkway, crushing those below.

If the enemy finally breaks through the main gate, and enters, then they do not have solid ground to use, as it is littered with a pile of their dead, and rocks. Can anyone say CaveIn? That would make the enemy frantic, knowing that they are there, but can't get past this mass of bodies and boulders/rocks.

I agree that Krysta would be more of a tactics warrior, but able to fight as well. She is creative, after all, she got her people away from the attack at her home village.

[VemuKhaham]

Udjat's ideas are fine, yes. I only wish to add one comment:

What kind of horse does Mordrid have? I assume a heavy warhorse from one of the nobility. heavy horses are slower then the light ones, so I'll be faster, which would mean that I would catch up with Mordrid anyway, wasting an hour of time or even more so. Send me first, I'll ride like the wind , and Mordrid may come after me if I can't reach the king he can later help me out. If I can, that'll save costly time. The king will recognize me as a volunteer I think.
And yes, the blackpowderbarrels should be divided into many smaller ones, I think. In my opinion many little explosions could cause more casualties and panic then only one big bang.

[Japic]

Well, I don’t want to toot my own horn here, but I am a decent tactician.

By the sounds of things Udjat’s got a pretty good list compiled. My only problem comes with sending one of our own (Romar) off to gather reinforcements (a days ride round trip, I think). In my opinion we could use the extra weapons here. I don’t think that Mordrid is a complete twit, and now that he has the opportunity to prove himself, I’m sure he’ll do right.


Fangor’s come up with some good options, here’s what I’ve got to add for traps:

Even if a trap only takes out five or ten troops, that’s five or ten less that we have to kill later. If we have the time, pit traps would be useful, and effective to divert the masses. Sharpened stakes inside and on the bottoms; set at random intervals around the field close to the keep. As for the explosive traps, one large keg, and a handful (5-10) of smaller ones sounds like the best option we have. According to KMan, a full keg is 20d6 dam, so if we make 10 smaller ones it’d be 2d6 damage in (roughly) a 5-10 ft radius plus the shrapnel gives extra damage and distance.

Oil in the grass would be helpful too, give them a little extra something to chew on.



As for what to do when battle comes, I’ve come up with the following:

All of the trained guards will be on the walls firing longbows. The able-bodied men will be on the walls firing with short/crossbows, or dump buckets of burning oil or holy water below. The old/young will be paired up around the keep to act as lookouts and help repel ladders/grappling hooks. Give them any sharp objects we can find from daggers to dinner knives to cut the grappling ropes. Flaming arrows will be used as necessary to light the barrels/traps and oil on the troops and such.

When/if the walls are breached the experienced fighters will drop into the Courtyard by ropes and fight the invaders. The able bodied and old/young will draw up the ropes and continue to attack and repel from above.

The maids will act as a fire brigade should fire be used against the keep.

The duke and his son, as well as the Captain of the guards, blacksmith and squires will go where they are needed in order to bolster the defenses. The adventurers should do the same.

Alternately, the blacksmith (beefy burly guy) and/or the able-bodied men can lob large chunks of rock/masonry down at the attackers

When/if the main Courtyard is overrun those below will fall back to the Main Keep and batten down the hatches. While those above continue to rain death down upon them. Those that just fell back to the Main Keep can move up the towers to attack from above as necessary.



I just looked at the map again and think that it would be wise for us to barricade shut the doorway for tower 1 that leads into the courtyard. We can use the ropes and/or the other towers to gain entrance to the ramparts above.

[K Man]

What kind of horse does Mordrid have? I assume a heavy warhorse from one of the nobility

Correct. However, a few of the 20 horses within the keep appear to be very well bred racing horses. Mordrid could easily exchange his heavy horse for one of these and he did prove to be a well-trained rider on the way here..

...as long as no rogue undoes his saddle straps.

[TheUdjat]

To add to Japic's suggestions -

We should have a small contingent set up in the courtyard for when the enemy does overrun to handoff spears and shields to those that drop below. They can operate as a phalanx unit down there, but tower shields and longspears are a little cumbersome to take down a rope. Better to have them there in advance.

I think we should combine this with a large-scale trap and the 'false portcullis' strategy. It'll look like we're trying very hard to defend the place, even as that phalanx is simply withdrawing to the next zone, putting them safely out of the blast radius. Then they can mop up what remains, or go up top, or stay down. Whatever's needed.

More later.

[Fangor the Fierce]

If we do set the fire trap out in the field, then that would divide the enemy forces, making the front ones cut off from retreat. We should then quickly take them out, so that when the rest of the forces behind them are clear of the fires, they will see that all of their front troops have been wiped out. That should surely throw them into dismay, possibly having them fall back to re-think their tactics. The fire should only be set when the enemy reaches the front pathway to the gate, or when enough enemy troops are on front of the fire line, so the we can deal with those first.

Also, rangers or druids, I do not know which one, but someone should be able to check what the weather is looking like for the next day....rain could spoil our chances and we will need to plan accordingly...

[TheUdjat]

Fangor77 said:

Also, rangers or druids, I do not know which one, but someone should be able to check what the weather is looking like for the next day....rain could spoil our chances and we will need to plan accordingly...

Good call! Forgot about the weather.