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Post by TheUdjat on Feb 3, 2005 16:14:27 GMT -5
The ride check is only to use the mount without hands. The check isn't necessary for the mount to move at all, thus it doesn't even need to be made.
It makes little sense to me to make a separate entity lose its actions because the person atop it used their actions. You don't deny a mount its attack action if the person atop it already attacked, why would you deny it a move action if the person atop used a move action? Remember that a move action includes drawing a weapon along with moving. It makes very little sense to me that somebody drawing a weapon would not be able to move atop their mount, so why extend it to making the mount incapable of moving if the person moved?
This is initiative based combat. We have been assuming the paladin's horse goes on about the same initiative, or slightly after. If a character were in the same position, they could act regardless of what another character did. Even if said character hopped on the other's back.
I hate to make things difficult by voicing my point of view, but I just haven't seen a legitimate reason to deny the mount its ability to move. What am I missing?
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Post by K Man on Feb 3, 2005 16:35:46 GMT -5
From Udjat:
From "All about mounts" (part 2)
You DO deny a mount an attack if you don't succeed at a ride check or bother to claim it...
From Udjat:
and
From "All about mounted Combat" (Part 1)
and
We're thinking like people here...not trained war animals.
Warhorses, or even unruly animals, will not take actions on their own. They are not living breathing combat machines capable of thinking and attacking on their own...they follow commands of their master. They are animals and they are an extension of their master.
We're looking at it as the perspective - "Why isn't my horse doing this?" when it needs to be - "Why don't I have the time to tell my horse to do this?" Callian was out of actions, plain and simple...hence he lacked the time (Before Krysta can react) to instruct his horse. Remember, combat is insanely fast and in the seconds it takes Callin to kick his heels and whistle or whatever, Krysta could have already chopped with her blade.
Again, we're not talking about characters...but rather a large 2,000 LB extension of one character that must receive signals in a certain form...
Does a construct act on its own? Or must it receive instructions? Elementals? These are the combat machines of mages...so why would a fighter's horse be any different? No instructions, no actions...
If Callian's final act last round had been to instruct his horse to continue moving, I would have bought the move action or if succeeded in a Handle Animal check to give a signal from a distance, I would have bought that too...but he's basically trying to buy extra time. Three move actions, sans a Haste effect, are impossible for any character.
And Udjat, never worry about expressing your opinions, we're all here to learn. Honestly, had Wiz not sent those articles, I would have no points to my arguement.
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Post by Wizard on Feb 3, 2005 17:06:01 GMT -5
Well, I deny the mount or myself an attack---not both! And since I didn't take an attack...
As for the second quote, about you and your mount functioning as one unit on the battlefield, I'm quite sure that's only in reference to reach and AoO's, not actions. That's what the entire paragraph is devoted to, and it's under the heading of "A mount and rider share the same space on the battlefield."
As for the last quote---again, I'm not asking for an attack for Callian, just for Tinsenlaed. The "you move along with it" part is just in reference to your physical place on the battlefield, and the "single melee attack..." well, that doesn't have any bearing here. Callian ain't attacking.
As for communication with my mount, don't empathic link and Int 6 figure into the equation? Int 6 ain't huge, but it's certainly high enough to get the gist of an angry feeling about Krysta. There's more to a paladin and his divine steed than bridle and bit.
As for the action debate, it's just not that hard---Callian stood up and mounted Tinsenlaed. Tinsenlaed then moved forward and attacked. Callian didn't bother to make the check 'cause he wasn't going to attack anyway.
I guess my point is that I don't really see a rules justification for depriving Tinsenlaed of his action, and the RP justification(not enough time to signal Tinsenlaed), while certainly sensible on its own, seems like it doesn't apply because of another RP factor(empathic link).
(Side note: If Krysta happens to try something that would provoke an AoO, like drinking a potion or something, only one of the two (horse or rider) could make an AoO, 'cause Callian didn't make the check.)
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Post by Japic on Feb 4, 2005 10:24:13 GMT -5
{Ok, Wiz. I hate to sound rude, but it's incredibly hard to argue points that don't exist in the rules. You are saying they can happen because the rules don't say you can't. I'm looking for justification that says they can; you provide me with that, and I'll consider it. At times the things left unwritten are not possible, therefore not worthy of wasting words on.
I know you want to win, everybody does. But we need to be fair and honest about it too. What follows is my official and final ruling on this topic.
A rider and mount act on the same initiative. Every action they take together (or apart) must take place in a 6 second window. If the master is out of time, so is the beast. Should the two be parted, acting in different places and taking different actions, it may be possible for the initiatives to become different (when the man delays an action or some such), but not while the rider is mounted on the beast.
A horse (special mount or no) is only an animal and cannot act unless it is commanded to do so. The command must come in the form of a Ride check (from the mounts back). Or a Handle Animal check to command it to perform one of it's tricks (when not mounted).
Your Empathic Link to this animal allows you to communicate telepathically. Please note where it says "Because of the limited nature of the link, only general emotional content can be communicated." 'Go attack Krysta because she hurt me' is not "general emotional content". Yes, the mount knows you are not happy with your foe, however unless commanded to do so, he cannot act out on your feelings (read above for time allotment).}
I will update the game post later today, I've already spent long enough on this as is and I need to get some work done.
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Post by Wizard on Feb 4, 2005 12:58:49 GMT -5
(I guess I can accept that ruling...what got me screwed up was the "you spend a standard action for your mount to do anything at all" thing.)
(Callian will attempt to use his mount for cover---Ride check @ +4 v DC 15, I believe.)
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Post by Fangor the Fierce on Feb 24, 2005 15:08:42 GMT -5
Krysta grabs another bag, and throws it at the Mount this time. She instinctively drops her Longsword instead or her Bastard sword.
Free Action - Drop Longsword Move action to grab another Tanglefoot bag on belt pouch while taking 5 step move south. Standard Action to throw the bag at the horse.
Tanglefoot bag - +9 to hit, ranged touch attack, DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor. -2 to attack rolls, and -4 to Dexterity (Reflex save suffers penalty).
"I said get down here and fight me!" (Her AC is back down to 22)
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Post by Wizard on Feb 24, 2005 16:06:42 GMT -5
(Cover, yo. Tinsenlaed's AC is looking at 14, Ref save of +6.)
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Post by Fangor the Fierce on Feb 24, 2005 16:14:35 GMT -5
Hey Wizard, would she be able to take a 5 foot step south and still do the above actions? If so, she will do that then... If not, then yeah, AC is 14 for Tinsenlaed. Reflex save would be +4 though, with a -4 Penalty to DEX if he is hit with the Tanglefoot bag. But I could be wrong. Let me know for future reference, as she will probably be using these bags in the campaign. Might as well try them out now...
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Post by Wizard on Feb 24, 2005 16:24:54 GMT -5
(Yeah, the 5-foot step works.
My first thought on the penalty to Ref saves would be no---it's only one bag, you know? I'm pretty sure they happen at the same time, but are rolled sequentially for convenience. 'Cause you end up with circular reasoning otherwise: The Ref save prolly represents pulling your feet away from the floor & goop, but if you didn't succeed, it's harder to do---what? But it's Japic's call.
Also, I'd divide your BOYD tactics into two branches---hard to hit, and easy to hit. The tanglefoot bags are for the hard ones. The psycho-blender-two-weapon-fighting-power attack-great cleave chain is for the easy ones. That's really where Callian won't particularly shine, 'cause a lot of his class abilities and feats are geared toward disabling/killing one tough target.
Oh, and Japic, like I said, Callian & Tinsenlaed are delaying 'til next round's 27.)
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Post by Fangor the Fierce on Feb 24, 2005 16:27:37 GMT -5
Thanks Wiz. I am hoping to run into some mass combat situations, where the fighters can show their stuff. Plus, a few more surprise tactics are sure to show up here and there.
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Post by Japic on Feb 27, 2005 13:59:53 GMT -5
{Regards the ref save: I'm gonna have to say that in a way the bag is kinda like how poison works, it has primary and secondary effects. Primary -2 to attack rolls, -4 on Dex. Secondary glued to floor. That's the way I read the text. Think of it like avoiding the worst of it on a successful reflex save. It's still effective, but not as effective as it could have been. If she misses the ranged touch, then there is obviously no effect. However in this arena, there are special circumstances to account for please see below.} Stepping south Krysta adds yet another weapon to the sandy floor (drop longsword) and grabs for a bag on her belt. She throws the bag at the mount this time instead of it's rider and hopes that it will help her cause. {Ranged touch: 24 vs10, success} THe bag strikes Tinsenlaed in the legs and splashes across her other legs. {Since the floor is sandy, I'll have to decline her getting stuck to it (sand would just go with her) but I will decrease the DC to 10 and say that she could get stuck to the pillar they are standing next to.} {Reflex save: 12 vs 10, success} Although thoroughly mucked up, the horse manages to not get affixed to any solid surfaces. Callian curses under his breath, and reviews the damage done by this second bag before acting. {Delay} ================== Next round Initiatve: Callian (27), Krysta (26) _______________________ /-----------------------\ /-------------------------\ /------------(-)------------\ /-----------------------------\ /-------------------------------\ /---------------------------------\ /-----------------------------------\ /-------------------------------------\ /----------[=]-------------[=]----------\ /-----------------------------------------\ |-----------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------| |------------------[===]------------------| |---(-)------------[===]------------(-)---| |------------------[===]------------------| |-----------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------| \-----------------------------------------/ \----------[=]-------------[=]----------/ \---------€C¤K------------------------/ \---------T¢------------------------/ \---------------------------------/ \-------------------------------/ \-----------------------------/ \------------(-)------------/ \-------------------------/ \-----------------------/ \_____________________/
[/size] € is Callian's saddle ¤ is Krysta's pack and (disarmed) sword, ¢ is the (disarmed) bow. Round 5 of 6 Callian entangled Round 1 of 6 Tinsenlaed entangled (Edit: forgot initiative)
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Post by Wizard on Feb 27, 2005 17:56:20 GMT -5
(Ride check @ +4...if Callian misses the DC, Tinsenlaed won't attack)
Tinsenlaed takes a 5-ft. step toward Krysta, then lets loose all his natural weapons.
(+6/+6/+0, 1d4+4 for the first two, and 1d4+2 for the third)
Callian, his sword ready, attempts to disarm Krysta of her remaining weapon.
(+13/+8...if he succeeds on the first disarm, the second attack is just a normal attack at +4 and 1d8+1d6+4.)
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Post by Japic on Feb 28, 2005 10:44:50 GMT -5
SOrry to contest this Wiz, but according to the rules of the tanglefoot bag, your mount is effectively entangled. He's only allowed to move at half movement, and a 5-foot step is only allowed when your movement is not hindered (see the glossary for the definition).
I just wanted to give you the chance to re-analyze your turn based upon the actions you can or cannot take.
If you want the horse to move the 5 feet to close with Krysta it will take atleast 10 feet worth of movement (entangle movement halved) to close the distance. That in turn would disallow the mount's full attack.
So, change your actions in anyway you see fit (within the rules of course), we'll go from there.
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Post by Wizard on Feb 28, 2005 12:09:31 GMT -5
(LOL, forgot about the movement penalty 'cause it hasn't done anything to Callian. Sure, just a hoof attack @+6.)
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Post by Fangor the Fierce on Mar 1, 2005 15:11:38 GMT -5
Krysta glares at the still mounted Callian. She then takes a 5 foot step back (EAST), grabbing another flask and throwing it at the ground at the base of the horse.
Ranged Touch Attack, +9 to hit the ground where the pack is. 1d6 fire damage if hit, but hopefully causing a little startle to the mount. Both Callian AND the mount will take 1 point of fire damage, as a warning.
She points to another flask on her belt, with the same design as the one just thrown at the ground.
"That will be your LAST warning!"
Krysta stares Callian in the eyes, hoping that he will heed her words and dismount. She had envisioned a noble battle, with swords clashing and parries made. Side stepping and dodging blows. Armour denting and sand flying from the quick footwork of the fighter. Not like this...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mordrock glances over the battlefield. "Kill the horse! I cook him up and feast on its flesh!" He sticks his tongue out at the Paladin, muttering some words in Goblin, that almost make Krysta blush. But her resolve is with this battle, and she simply shrugs off the urge.
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Post by Japic on Mar 3, 2005 17:46:00 GMT -5
{Stupid work, making me work... instead of goofing off here… Oh well, I guess that’s why they pay me.} {The mount’s movement I’m seeing as sort of ‘sidestepping’, so that you are both in a position to attack still. You will however have moved; so no full-attacks for either of you.} Callian urges his mount to the side, urging her to move close enough to combat Krysta. {Ride check 6 vs 5, success} Tinsenlaed closes the distance while striking out with a hoof {Atk roll 26 (nat 20!), crit confirm, fail) vs 22} and the blow glances off her armor, avoiding what could have surely been a nasty blow {7 damage}. Callian leans down towards Krysta to relieve her of yet another weapon {Disarm 23 vs 21, success} and succeeds in the weapon landing with a soft thud in the sand. Backing up another step Krysta pulls a vial from her belt and smashes it at the horse’s feet {atk roll 13 vs 10, success.} Tinsenlaed whinnies in discomfort as the fire splashes onto her belly and onto Callian’s legs {1 damage each}. {Fire damage to the leather pack: 2 (after hardness) (enough to sunder pack, FYI)} The leather is burning freely, the flames dancing at the horse’s feet. Taking satisfaction in the discomfort of the mounted man, Krysta points to another flask on her belt (with the same design as the one just thrown at the ground) and delivers her ultimatum: _______________________ /-----------------------\ /-------------------------\ /------------(-)------------\ /-----------------------------\ /-------------------------------\ /---------------------------------\ /-----------------------------------\ /-------------------------------------\ /----------[=]-------------[=]----------\ /-----------------------------------------\ |-----------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------| |------------------[===]------------------| |---(-)------------[===]------------(-)---| |------------------[===]------------------| |-----------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------| |-----------------------------------------| \-----------------------------------------/ \----------[=]-------------[=]----------/ \---------€-C-K-----------------------/ \----------T------------------------/ \---------------------------------/ \-------------------------------/ \-----------------------------/ \------------(-)------------/ \-------------------------/ \-----------------------/ \_____________________/
[/size] € is Callian's saddle ¤ is Krysta's pack and (disarmed) sword, ¢ is the (disarmed) bow. Last round of Callian entangled Round 2 of 6 Tinsenlaed entangled HP totals: (after round) Krysta = 37/57 Callian = 19/32 (Mount [no saddle] =44/45) Krysta currently holds no weapons. (To make sure everyone was on the same page)
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Post by Wizard on Mar 3, 2005 18:56:14 GMT -5
Callian urges Tinsenlaed on, and the mount responds. Turning east, the horse leans forward and brings his size to bear... (Ride check @ +4, if it's failed, Callian lets Tinsenlaed do the attacking.) (Tinsenlaed moves for the map to look like this: ---TTK-- and then grapples Krysta: +6 touch attack, then grapple check @ +10, doing a whopping...1d4+4 subdual damage. If Callian made the Ride check and Tinsenlaed's grapple failed, Callian will attempt to grapple Krysta, +8 on the touch attack, +7 on the grapple check. 1d3+3 subdual. If Callian made the Ride check and the grapple succeeded, he'll make an attack on Krysta @ +11, 1d8+1d6+4.)
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Post by Fangor the Fierce on Mar 3, 2005 20:14:47 GMT -5
Krysta's AC is 15 vs touch attacks. Grapple modifier, +9 Those are for Tinsenlaed's grapple attempt. As Wizard likes to quote rules, here's one for you: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050208aThose are the list of actions that you can perform while mounted. Escapin gfrom a grapple is listed, but not initiating the grapple. Why? I am glad you asked. Here's why: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050301a If you look, under the header for Grappling Requirements, you would need both hands to grapple. Are you going to drop your weapon? Or you going to let go of your mount? I understand you can guide the mount with your knees, but to grapple, I would seriously think you would have to have both hands free. I concede that Tinsenlaed will get his opportunity, and 99% sure that you would have to make an attack, and not be able to grapple. I will have to wait to see if Krysta is grappled or not to post. But either way, I will try to post accordingly. IF she is grappled by Tinsenlaed, Krysta looks up to the Paladin. "Letting your mount so your work?" She then tries to break free of the grip. Opposed grapple checks please, +9 for Krysta. +10 for Tinsenlaed. If she wins, she will move into the square northwest, while drawing her longsword and short sword. If she is grappled and fails her first grapple check, she will try again, but at +4 to escape. Same results as above. If she is not grappled in the previous round, she will take a 5 foot step, while grabbing her weapons of choice. Both her Longsword and short sword will be retreived. She will then strike at her target. +10 to hit. 1d8+4 damage, no frost damage. I hope that covers it....
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Post by Wizard on Mar 3, 2005 21:20:15 GMT -5
I'll concede Callian's inability to grapple with a longsword in his hand, so that'll just be a normal attack. I don't see any evidence for preventing a rider from grappling someone while mounted, however. Note that the grapple will automatically dismount the rider if he initiates it, because whoever initiates a grapple moves into the defender's space. Still, I see neither a rules reason nor a RP reason to prevent a rider from grappling someone from horseback, albeit dismounting themselves into the bargain.
In any case, it doesn't particularly matter, because Callian is loath to part with his weapon, so it'll be a normal attack.
Er...Krysta can't "draw" a weapon, 'cause she doesn't have any. She can certainly pick them up off the ground, though---in which case Tinsenlaed will use his AoO to grapple her again. If Callian succeeded on his ride check and therefore threatens, he'll make a normal attack as his AoO.
Also, she can't pick up two weapons and then attack. Picking something up is a move action. TWF lets you draw two weapons in the space of one move action(or free action w/Quick Draw, but that's beside the point)---it doesn't let you pick up additional items from the ground. Different things.
Finally, if she happens to fail her first grapple check to escape but succeeds on the second, she's used a full-round action to get that second "attack," and so can't pick up a weapon off of the ground---though the 5-ft. step is fine.
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Post by Fangor the Fierce on Mar 3, 2005 21:32:35 GMT -5
Er...Krysta can't "draw" a weapon, 'cause she doesn't have any. She can certainly pick them up off the ground, though---in which case Tinsenlaed will use his AoO to grapple her again. If Callian succeeded on his ride check and therefore threatens, he'll make a normal attack as his AoO. Also, she can't pick up two weapons and then attack. Picking something up is a move action. TWF lets you draw two weapons in the space of one move action(or free action w/Quick Draw, but that's beside the point)---it doesn't let you pick up additional items from the ground. Different things. Finally, if she happens to fail her first grapple check to escape but succeeds on the second, she's used a full-round action to get that second "attack," and so can't pick up a weapon off of the ground---though the 5-ft. step is fine. Actually, looking back, she dropped her longsword, you are correct. But she has a second longsword. The Frost Longsword. She also has a hunting knife as well. Two weapon fighting feat does allow you to grab two weapons, with a move action. If she escapes the grapple with her initial check, then that would use one standard action. Her move action would then be to draw her weapons. You are right though, as escaping the grapple with her secondary attempt would indeed use up her full action. She would not be able to draw without a move equivalent action. She is not taking a 5 foot step when she escapes the grapple, it is part of the entry for escaping a grapple. I can move into ANY adjacent square.
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